Impossible Romantic Scenario

[BrandonMV]

I'm in what seems to be an impossible romantic scenario. That is, a scenario where romantic love is not possible for me (see below). I would appreciate any helpful thoughts and opinions on the matter.

---

Most generally, I'm a homosexual. However, I largely lack sexual desires, and the desire I do have is only toward heterosexual men. I believe that these two facts are interrelated. With the understanding that I'm only attracted to heterosexual men comes the understanding that a romance is necessarily impossible. As a result, my desires are significantly stifled. As for why I'm attracted only to heterosexual men -- and very few, at that -- I don't know exactly. But I do know that regardless of physical appearance, as soon as I discover that a man is homosexual, I'm completely turned off sexually. If you've heard Dr. Peikoff's Q&A Love, Sex, and Romance, I believe that my reaction to the thought of having a romance with a homosexual man is similar to Ayn Rand's reaction to Peikoff asking her if she would have liked to be a man (and to therefore be attracted to women); it almost induces a shudder. Psychology is of primary importance to me, and sexuality affects a person's psychology and basic mental framework in a fundamental way that I can't overlook.

Obviously, this yields a problem. I think that romance is a basic psychological need -- for the sort of intimate visibility or whatever else it may provide -- but due to the contradictory nature of my desires which I am currently helpless to change, I cannot achieve it. Therefore, I'm left paralyzed and often depressed. My first request, then, is for advice as to what I should do. There seems to be very few options. The only possible option I see is to focus on other values such as career and possibly a child instead, but this doesn't seem to really fix the problem. Eliminating this need or becoming heterosexual seem like they would resolve the problem, but I don't know if that's possible right now. Perhaps there are other options, but I don't see them. (Preemptive Remark: I do not think that changing one's sexuality is a matter of rejecting one's identity any more than is working to change the evaluations that give rise to one's emotional responses in general.)

---

My second request for advice is regarding a particular case. I currently have a heterosexual friend for whom I've developed strong feelings. We've been friends for several years and I'd like to continue our friendship but doing so is painful for me because of these feelings. After much deliberation, I decided to tell him (this was not easy) and he said that while it bothered him, it didn't bother him that much. Thus, it seems to bother me more than it does him. And so, I don't know what to do. I've tried staying away from him for awhile. In fact, there was a period where we didn't speak much for a year or so, but as soon as speaking resumed, so did the rest. I could elaborate on why I think I like him, but I don't know if that's necessary for the advice. Here I see three options: end the friendship, end my feelings, or deal with it. The first would be a huge loss, the second I don't know how to do, and the third is painful.

If I were to attempt to stop those feelings, understanding their source would be helpful, but it's very complicated and difficult for me to grasp. I do think it's very much a sense of life issue, but I can't articulate what mine is, let alone his and how they relate. However, in addition to that, since many of his friends are away at college, he focuses on me more and asks me to hang out often, and I think my subconscious romanticizes that. Also, I think that my sense of life is sort of in a transition stage. For a time, I was having a sort of music identity crisis and was not able to fully decide on what music I liked. And I knew this was because I didn't know which vibes from the music represented something good and right. Lately, I've been interested in certain pop and hip hop music, largely influenced by him. I caught myself the other day wondering if he would like a song in trying to figure out if I like it. I'm not sure what this means exactly, but I think it might be worth noting. Also, if it's relevant, I'm 19 and will be 20 within a few months.

---

To summarize, I would like...

1) advice on my general romantic situation.

2) advice on the particular situation with my friend.

3) advice on how to understand one's sexuality, sense of life, etc. better.

---

Thank you.

[aequalsa]

To summarize, I would like...

1) advice on my general romantic situation.

2) advice on the particular situation with my friend.

3) advice on how to understand one's sexuality, sense of life, etc. better.

---

That's a unique set of circumstances. The only commonality that I could think of to other circumstances I have been aware of is that it seems like people very often set up a circumstance like this where the thing they want is something which they cannot have. I knew a girl, for example who created this laundry list of traits that she wanted in a guy. I did the math on these traits when I was bored one day and statistically there were approximately 2 men on the planet that would fit all of her criteria.

I couldn't(and wouldn't) begin to guess on the particulars, with regard to your life, but generally speaking, I would suspect that someone who creates an impossible task for themselves has some reason that they want to avoid the more realistically achievable values and having an impossible psuedo-goal keeps them safe from that potentiality. By waiting for this very specific sort of person the girl I mention above was able to quite successfully not be in a relationship.

If it is something along those lines, therapy might be helpful to find out if it's an attachment issue or whatever that makes you unintentionally avoid real relationships.

[bluecherry]

Wait, wait, when you say you find out somebody is homosexual it then turns you off you say it doesn't matter what they look like - does this also apply regardless of anything else about their personality? I'm wondering if maybe you aren't assuming certain things apply to all homosexual males which in fact do not and that you may be turned off to a man in spite of his not having those other traits you associate with homosexuality which are what you actually do not like. Alternatively, as one other guess, it sounds like maybe you don't like anybody anymore who you otherwise would be just because they could actually be attracted to you. You find something unattractive about homosexuality in the male psychology - how, if at all, does this impact your assessment of yourself, seeing as you are yourself a homosexual male? Do you have any kind of lesser fondness (any kind of non-romantic fondness) for any females once you learn they are homosexual? Would I be correct in assuming you are similarly turned off by bisexuality in men? This is just another shot in the dark, but by any chance might you have any reason to believe you may actually wish you were a female instead of a male?

I'm asking lots of questions like these because I think this line, "I do think it's very much a sense of life issue, but I can't articulate what mine is, let alone his and how they relate," has something that may be useful to address. Yes, I agree sense of life is really important in an issue like this pretty surely, and I also agree what kind of things you are romantically drawn to has a lot to do with assessments you make like any other kind of emotion - assessments which can be good or which may be really screwy and mistaken. You list three options you see earlier on what to do with the general issue and if the second option means eliminating the need for romance, then I'll add another suggestion of maybe an option, or if you meant eliminate the need of heterosexuality as a necessary thing in a males or them to be romantically attractive, then that is the one I'm going to say sounds like the most promising option, since I know darned well just focusing on other values and committing to life without romance forever is not something just anybody can decide to do and have it work out well and there are long histories of many varied and strong efforts with many people to change their sexuality just not working out. So, working on figuring out explicitly your sense of life and why you don't find any kind of homosexual man attractive may, hopefully, yield some things which can help you change your clearly less than ideal situation. If this does continue to be difficult for you to figure out much explicitly about your sense of life and why homosexuality in men would be undesirable for you, not only what it is about their sense of life you don't like, but why you decided in the first place it was not what would be desirable for your life, perhaps you may want to consider looking into going to a decent psychologist to try to help you along in the process.

Now about your friend specifically, I don't recomend ditching him before you figure out your long term solution to your overall problem unless you just really can't bear being around him any longer (and even then, you may want to tell him you just can't be around him temporarily while you work out your issues) because you could end up losing him needlessly after you end up finding a solution to your conundrum.

[KevinD]

Enixyle:

The British humorist Quentin Crisp once spoke of the same kind of dilemma you are facing:

"I'm an effeminate homosexual. And for people like me, the dream, the hope, the ambition, is to win and to keep the love of a real man. And of course the essence of a real man is that he does not fall in love with people of his own sex. Therefore, it's insoluble. It's unanswerable."

(1970 interview, available here. Quotation begins at 6:03)

Crisp was an exceptionally odd character; it's hard to know at times just how seriously to take him.

I suspect Crisp is over-generalizing. I have known many gay people who seem to be happy and content with their sexual orientation.

At the same time, I also think that the problem you describe might be more widespread than is commonly acknowledged.

I'm sorry to say that I have no specific advice for you, but I can imagine being in your situation must be incredibly frustrating and difficult.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Kevin Delaney

[BrandonMV]

bluecherry,

I don't think I'm assuming that certain traits apply to all homosexual males apart from the fact they're homosexual. And I'm not attracted to homosexuals for a similar reason to that provided in the quote from Kevin Delany, "the essence of a real man is that he does not fall in love with people of his own sex." I read this as a perspective on masculinity in which homosexuality is not masculine. That is not to say that homosexuality is feminine, but it is what it is and not what it's not. And I'm not attracted to it. Others might be, and I don't have a problem with that. And I have no problem with other homosexuals. I have friends that are (although honestly I've never knowingly met a homosexual woman or a bisexual), but I'm just not attracted to them.

---

While I did say that homosexuality in another man turns me off, I didn't say I find it unattractive, which I take to imply a form of disgust. As for simply not being attracted to homosexuals, that does not impact my self-concept. Consider this similar situation: A heterosexual woman will not be attracted to another heterosexual woman. But this does not mean that she therefore thinks less of herself.

Moreover, I don't have any desire to be a woman. Even imagining it bothers me, as it is a seriously departure from my self-concept. I am not and do not wish to be feminine.

---

When I said "eliminate the need", I meant to eliminate the desire for romantic relationships because they would not be possible. That way I could focus on other values without perpetual frustration. I didn't mean to eliminate the qualification that a male be heterosexual, which seriously violates my concept of masculinity and I do not think I can change that without evading. However, I would very much like to get a better grasp on my sense of life so I can articulate these issues better. But I'm not sure how to do that. It's difficult.

---

I agree with your last paragraph. And that's what I'm trying to do right now: Figure out what my long-term goal and solution should be.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Enixyle

[BrandonMV]

Aequalsa, I will keep your point in mind that impossible tasks often spawn from wanting to avoid achievable ones. I don't know that it applies, as of course this is not something I chose, but it could have something to do with how I developed.

Kevin Delaney, thank you for the quote and the suggestion that my situation might be more widespread. I do find it odd that my concept of masculinity seems to be so uncommon among homosexuals.

[Dante]

I think the key to the first scenario would be to delve into exactly what the basis for this disinterest in homosexual men is. What experiences and subconscious premises underlie it? Why does it happen? These are some of the hardest questions to get answers to, and it would probably help to talk to people about it, particularly a psychologist or someone else who is experienced at getting people to understand their own emotions. Bringing the basis for this phenomenon into conscious awareness is the first step to resolving it. Easier said than done though, right?

[bluecherry]

Good to hear that about what you presently plan to do about your friend, at least as far as not just dropping and running right now.

I'd say you may want to consider examining your ideas about masculinity a bit more closely. Why do you think attraction to women the true essence of a male persona? Furthermore, if that is the case, that it is THE thing that makes or breaks it so no matter what else you've got, you just STILL can't count as "masculine", then why should that particular thing be something you value? What on earth does such a thing contribute to your life to make up for the HUGE detriments you've discussed if you will agree that a person could be pretty much entirely what matters to you sans the exclusive attraction to women, so it can't be a matter of other issues and therefore must be directly about the attraction to women and not men? Also, this may be a matter of just that you were generally agreeing with somebody else's statement, so the exact working may not reflect your thoughts so well, but if you do agree with this part of the quote, it says in the quote that attraction to women - women exclusively I assume - is required to count as a "real" man. You've said you don't have problems with your self-esteem basically because of these issues, so I'm going to guess that means you just don't agree with that exact wording of the quote (and so maybe should try to give a better wording of your own instead), because if no homosexual male counts as as "real" man no matter what else there is about them, and you are a homosexual man, you'd have to conclude that you, yourself, do not count as a "real" man, an idea I'd bet you'd probably not be pleased with.

As for something not agreeing with your self-concept, it is, of course, possible for people to have messed up things built into their self concept or things they cling onto because they've decided it is who they are even though the thing has since ceased to provide them with sufficient positive impact on their life. You came about your values and self-concept somehow, so if something about these things may be giving you SERIOUS difficulties in your life, maybe don't count out just yet re-examining the conclusions that make up things about yourself which are related to your area of troubles.

I know darn well this all could be irrelevant, but I really don't know you to make better guesses and/or suggestions based on you specifically (nor is this meant to be me saying you should just go and give me your life story here). Sorry if this is of little use. The suggestion of maybe trying out a psychologist if difficulties persist though could be much more useful. They're professionals at this sort of thing and you can be darn sure they'll be careful about your confidential information, unlike posting on a public forums.

Edited April 7, 2010 by bluecherry

[BrandonMV]

bluecherry,

A view of masculinity and feminity is something that I've automatized rather than formed explicitly, and I haven't really tried to make it explicit. I think the relevant point is that masculinity and femininity are complements and that all of their characteristics are determined by a single goal: to be loved by a woman or to be loved by a man, respectively. The corresponding anatomies imply all the rest, in terms of dominance and submission, or whatever the appropriate terms are.

In my view, homosexuality contradicts both points: it violates the complementary nature and it violates the single goal by which all the other characteristics of masculinity are determined. To allow these violations would be to make masculinity arbitrary and to thereby lose its meaning. And so, this isn't something I can just redefine, it's the result of the sum of my observations over my lifetime.

And Dante, to be honest, I would much rather change my orientation (if that's even possible) than I would change my lack of interest in homosexual men. The former deals more with how I view myself in relation to others whereas the latter commits me to the above problem.

I have seen a psychologist about my situation before but she just helped me accept my state rather than solve or amend it. I do think others could probably help me, and if I don't figure it out for myself by then, I will seek professional help when I have the time and money.

Also, I should have been more careful in reusing that quote. When I said that "real man" was describing a concept of masculinity, I meant just that. It's simply my standard for an object of sexual desire. A man who does not fit that concept is not less of a person morally. Therefore, it has no effect on my self-concept.

Edited April 7, 2010 by Enixyle

[ZSorenson]

I have a few points of view from my experience to share that might be helpful.

When I was 19-21, (as a heterosexual male) I would get quite infatuated with certain women. One or two, but particularly one in particular quite caught my eye. Now, I'm 24. I am not friends with this girl, and I don't think I could have any feelings for her ranging between healthy attraction, and subtle contempt. It's a one way or the other sort of thing. But I don't deal with or see her ever, and I hardly ever even think of her. Another girl provoked a similar reaction, but I eventually grew to think well of her and enjoy conversation, but with contempt for her romantic habits (not sexual, just how she is in relationships) was able to 'move on' from my previous attraction. At this point in my life, I'm a lot more skeptical about women, and a lot less likely to be as convinced that certain attractions are as life-shatteringly important as I did a few years ago. I also want to point out that for a while I was a practicing Mormon (ick), and so my sexual desires in relationships were NEVER gratified - and appreciate the intensity of attraction and desire - though I have never but once faced an attraction where I KNEW it would NEVER work out.

After a time perhaps you'll come to terms with this just from perspective and experience alone.

[Eiuol]

A view of masculinity and feminity is something that I've automatized rather than formed explicitly, and I haven't really tried to make it explicit. I think the relevant point is that masculinity and femininity are complements and that all of their characteristics are determined by a single goal: to be loved by a woman or to be loved by a man, respectively. The corresponding anatomies imply all the rest, in terms of dominance and submission, or whatever the appropriate terms are.

I would be curious, then, if you see yourself as feminine because you only desire men? And because the way you view masculinity and femininity, you may possibly think femininity would require desiring only heterosexual men? Or maybe you don't see yourself feminine at all, so you feel conflicted in your identity when you know you are attracted to men? I am not trying to psychologize here, I am just posing questions that may help you.

In my view, homosexuality contradicts both points: it violates the complementary nature and it violates the single goal by which all the other characteristics of masculinity are determined. To allow these violations would be to make masculinity arbitrary and to thereby lose its meaning. And so, this isn't something I can just redefine, it's the result of the sum of my observations over my lifetime.

Maybe it would make masculinity arbitrary. It is certainly possible you could also have mistaken premises, too. Since you said you have only automatized the two concepts rather than formed them explicitly, there is good reason to question if the way you formed those concepts are even valid.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Eiuol

[BrandonMV]

Eiuol,

That's a good question. In a previous post I wrote, "I am not and do not wish to be feminine," but I was thinking in the context of outward behavior and appearance and that I do not want to be a woman. But I view masculinity and femininity as aspects of both a person's outward behavior and appearence and his or her psychology. And so, as a whole, I do not consider myself feminine (nor do people in general), but I suppose that the homosexual aspect of my psychology is.

I wouldn't say that femininity requires desiring only heterosexual men. I think that woman can desire a homosexual man for being physically masculine, for example, or for what she perceives as him having a masculine psychology. Those desires do not conflict with a feminine identity. But I do think that a homosexual man has fundamental aspects of his psychology that are not masculine. And so, if she grasps that, I do not think a feminine woman would be attracted to a homosexual man.

The same applies to me, and because I grasp that, I am not attracted to homosexual men. But again, I do not consider myself feminine except for the sexuality aspect of my psychology. I do feel conflicted with my identity, because I don't like describing myself as feminine in any way, so I will give it more thought. That may have something to do with me wanting to be desirable according to my own standard, but because that has no practical implications (since no heterosexual man would view me in that way), I could probably get over it.

EDIT: I'll read and might respond to other comments but questions have been raised that I need to reflect on before I can move ahead. I appreciate the comments so far.

Edited April 8, 2010 by Enixyle

[bluecherry]

You said you intend to do some more reflecting before doing much else on this topic and may not respond much until you’ve done so. This sounds like a good idea, so do go ahead and not respond to or maybe even read the rest of this for ages if need be. Heh. I’m just responding now in case I forgot about it if I waited.

“masculinity and femininity are complements and that all of their characteristics are determined by a single goal: to be loved by a woman or to be loved by a man, respectively.” If so, then what is their importance to your life to make things like that desirable? You are not part of that system seeing as your goal is not to get any women. There are typical personality traits associated with males and females, but you’ve already said you think somebody can be a homosexual and have all those other traits anyway, so it isn’t like you could say there’s any kind of lack of that stuff which is what would bother you about the absence of desire for females romantically and sexually and the presence of a desire for males instead. On the other hand, if you want to have some kind of reason for why anybody might be any particular way about their personality even though they don’t intend to try to get females, how about the fact that YOU want somebody that way and they may want to get somebody like you? You are a case in point that heterosexual females are not the only ones who want males of that sort of personality.

Now as for being complementary, to give a dictionary definition of the word, my dictionary says it is “1. completing part: something that completes or perfects something else 2. one of two: either of two things that form a unit” (Encarta ® World English Dictionary © & (P) 1998-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.) Nothing in there says or implies anything about things having to have some kind of particular special difference between them for them to be complementary. Magnets are often used as a metaphor for romantic complements and saying “opposites attract”, however, (aside from the fact that I don’t buy that males and females typically are opposites in romance or even that masculinity and femininity are in any way opposites,) there are examples of things that are very similar or the same which complement each other too. Chain links are basically the same as each other, but they work together to form whole units as one example.

Now as for where you got the idea that romantic relationships between males and females are about dominance and submission, maybe it is some common, strange old idea floating around many western societies, but not everybody who is attracted to anybody not of their own sex is into D/s, even if just a little bit. Furthermore, just because something you find attractive doesn’t arise from something to do with what genital type or secondary sex characteristics you have or who you desire has, that doesn’t mean it is necessarily bad or that you have no reason to like such things at all. For example, courage is a trait commonly associated with males. Courage though is something really handy to have in life generally. Somebody may especially focus on having courage in a romantic partner because they enjoy doing things like sky diving and bungee jumping and very widely publicized controversial political activism and they don’t want somebody who would be worried and uncomfortable about this, maybe even they’d like somebody who would have the guts to help them with these things rather than try to get them to back off or hide. Additionally, if you don’t think you have anything about yourself that seems more typically feminine aside from that you are attracted to males, you may like how much you find in common with some other males and how easily you can understand and relate to them.

“I have seen a psychologist about my situation before but she just helped me accept my state rather than solve or amend it. I do think others could probably help me, and if I don't figure it out for myself by then, I will seek professional help when I have the time and money.” Yes, sounds good. I’m currently seeing one myself for my own damn extremely difficult romantic challenges and if she eventually just tries to make me function living with it rather than resolving it, I’ve long been planning to drop her and go elsewhere. I hear who you go see and maybe even who you see for what can make a lot of difference.

Edited April 8, 2010 by bluecherry

[BrandonMV]

bluecherry,

The reason I noted that I'd like to reflect before making additional comments is that I haven't fully digested my thoughts on masculinity, femininity, and how they apply to sexuality and myself. I have definite views, but they're not precise and probably not wholly accurate yet. Also, I don't think you fully understand the views I described and how they apply to me. But rather than trying to clarify those thoughts, I'd rather hear how you would define masculinity and femininity. I'll send you a private message about it, though, because that question is broader than the topic.

[Jackethan]

Intrinsic non-value of homosexuality is arbitrary. Homosexuality is not a floating concept. What if you met a man who has a girlfriend and loves her and has a healthy relationship with her but then tells you privately that he is homosexual, or that he used to be homosexual and only got with this girl because she is a special case? Would he immediately turn you off? Or is it the act of having a girlfriend/heterosexual thoughts that turns you on?

What if a person strives to appear attractive -to people- who see him? Why does the particular audience bother you? Furthermore why is it more important to look good 'for someone' and not just to look good for onesself? Personally I dress nicely, cut my nails, wear cologne, and do my hair to look good for myself, so that when I look in the mirror I can admire how nicely I present myself which gives me confidence in general. The particular tastes (or gender) of a person seeing me does not enter into my fashion or external personality tastes. I act how I want to act, and dress how I want to, and so far nobody I've known ever has guessed that I'm gay or might be gay. People are always shocked when I tell them. Would you be attracted to a man whom nobody could tell was gay unless he told them? Or does just the fact that he likes the idea of sleeping with a man turn you off?

Having a warped view of masculinity is a very common problem in today's world. Where today masculinity is defined by body hair, flatulence, liking of beer, enduring pain for no reason, and enjoying sports, in older times masculinity was defined as virtue, in fact the word Virtue comes from latin roots meaning 'Being a man'. The word Arete from greek implies acting in a manly fashion, which Aristotle defined as Eudaimonia, or action in accordance with excellence. Virtue (and manliness) in the ancient world does not imply chasing skirts at all. Defining it as such only gives it unnecessary second handedness.

If you've automatized a warped view of masculinity or sexual identity then I do suggest introspection and attempting to change it. It is definitely possible to do so, and simply practicing Radical Acceptance as your psychologist suggests is, as you have noted yourself, just a band-aid.

[BrandonMV]

I never said or meant to imply that homosexuality inherently has no value or that it's some arbitrarily constructed concept. I've only said that, in another person, it has no sexual value to me. I've also said that I have no problem if others do obtain such a value.

As for the man who has a girlfriend but told me he is or was homosexual, my reaction would depend on the context. If he is really homosexual, why is he with the girl? Is he deceiving her? If he was homosexual and only "got with this girl because she is a special case", is it true that he really is no longer a homosexual? What is the current state of his psychology? It's his psychology that I care about, and I believe that sexuality affects a person's psychological approach in a fundamental way. Even if I am unable to perceive it immediately, I know that it will be visible with any form of intimacy. And so, that realization turns me off.

I think there's a great value in looking good. I'm not sure what you're responding to there. What audience are you referring to when you say, "Why does the particular audience bother you?" If someone thinks I look good, I don't care who it is.

Again, what turns me off is not primarily any given appearance or action, but what they reveal about a person's psychology. Take for example a man who sleeps with men. The act only turns me off insofar as it reveals the romantic nature of the person's psychology. And when I say turns me off, I just mean that I lose interest, not that I'm disgusted by it.

How exactly sexuality affects a person's psychology I can't fully specify because I'm not a psychologist. But I do perceive differences in my own psychology and in the psychology of others, which is especially evident in the romantic context. And while being virtuous makes a person worthy of admiration, I don't think it is enough to warrant romantic interest. There's definitely something more involving one's sexual identity, i.e, how one views oneself sexually in relation to others. And I think that, to be rational, any effort to change one's sexual identity -- including how one views masculinity/femininity and oneself in relation to others -- must be based on objective facts. At least in terms of masculinity/femininity, I don't see facts suggesting that I have a warped view there. And I definitely do not subscribe to the modern one that you mentioned.

[John Link]

Have I got this right? You're a man who wants to sleep only with men that have no interest in sleeping with men.

I'm reminded of Woody Allen's statement that he wouldn't join any club that would have him as a member.

John Link

[Jackethan]

Even if I am unable to perceive it immediately, I know that it will be visible with any form of intimacy. And so, that realization turns me off.

You are already making generalizations and assumptions and hiding them under the word 'psychology.' What specific effects does homosexuality have on the psychology of a person? Are you assuming the person is going to be effeminate in some way? As far as I know homosexuality has no causal relationship between my subconscious and my personality. I do not believe I was 'wired' to be gay and that my brain is 'just different' than straight people. I chose to be homosexual based on value judgements made over a long span of time during my youth. Most people make those judgements earlier and more automatically than I did, and thus come to believe they were simply 'born that way' however a gay man does not have to act with any sort of personality or psychological defect anymore than a person who likes video games has to be a nerd or a person who watches NASCAR has to be a redneck.

I am not trying to insinuate that you're being insulting, and I'm not offended by your stance, I'm trying to find the root of it and show you a different perspective on your problem. I think your definition of masculinity which includes the desire to be with a woman isn't a proper definition of masculinity, and I think your conclusion that homosexual people all have an identical psychological trend is a generalization.

[BrandonMV]

You may not share my observations, but I do not think it makes you right to jump to the conclusion that I'm therefore making [over]generalizations and assumptions and "hiding" them. I say that you're jumping to that conclusion because you stated it as a fact, rather than suggesting it as a possibility, without knowing the relevant observations that led me to my conclusions on this issue. I do need to give some of them more thought before I'd be willing to articulate them fully. That's why I offered that caveat, "questions have been raised that I need to reflect on before I can move ahead." And that's why for the past few posts I've been responding to clarify what I think, but not the full reasoning for why I think it.

When I tried to describe masculinity, I was trying to identify the principle that unifies all of its characteristics, what in reality determines what qualifies as masculine. And so, based on my observations of men and women in a romantic context, I suggested that the principle consists of the implications sex characteristics have for the desire to be loved by a woman. That's not to say that in order to be masculine at all, a person must love a woman, just that that is a part of the standard by which one determines what is masculine in general -- which any particular person regardless of sexual orientation can exhibit, even significantly so.

And so, I am not assuming that a male homosexual must be effeminate, if that means that their behavior and appearence must be overall feminine. I'm only saying that homosexuality, by definition, insofar as it manifests their psychology, is at least not masculine using my definition (which is based on observation). I'm reluctant to say it's feminine because the circumstances involved might make it something else altogether.

I've heard a lot about what others think masculinity is not, but if you have another idea about what it is, please feel free to suggest it. If you would really define it as just being virtuous, I definitely disagree that its that simple. Otherwise, what's the difference between masculinity and femininity? Does it really have nothing to do with a person's sex? Or are those terms exclusive to outward behavior and appearance? I don't think so.

[Jackethan]

I would define masculinity and femininity as outward social mores, personality traits and aesthetic ideals assigned to you by your parents and communicated to you from infancy. From the very first time your parents buy you a 'blue' jumper instead of a pink one, you begin to observe that there are two types of humans and that one of them shares similar characteristics with you and so you begin to act like them. I do not believe any part of a person's personality or psychology is deterministically (as in, unchangeably) decided by the genetic code.

So yes, I think they are exclusive to outward behavior and appearance. I have met many 'masculine' women and many 'effeminate' men and all kinds in between. How then do I create my standards for what is attractive to me or not? I begin with virtue, is he/she virtuous. Then I examine him or her as a person and judge the whole, aesthetically, emotionally (sense of life), idiosyncrasy etc. The only time gender comes into my judgement is completely prior to meeting the person, when deciding what gender I will 'focus' on, as in, what gender would I primarily look for if I were to sign up for a dating site? What gender will I imagine myself being with at an old age. I make that decision off of my judgements of masculinity and femininity, which in my definition could also be described 'generalizations about men and women that I have observed.' So in this case my method of getting at what masculinity and femininity are are the same as yours, I observe. However my observations enter into my standards only insomuch as I recognize them for what they are, an informally gathered statistic. As Peikoff quoted Ayn Rand saying: Statistics are only useful when you necessarily must decide without the necessary information to be sure. Once I have actually met a person and am getting to know them, my definitions of masculine and feminine (statistical data) is moot, I need no longer assume this person will act a certain way based on my observations of others of his type, I can simply watch him and judge his actions on their own.

[BrandonMV]

If I understand you correctly, your view is that the concepts of masculinity and femininity are arbitrary constructs of which the only value is to help form reasonable expectations about the way a person of a specific sex will act or appear. The corresponding method to determine what qualifies as such, then, as you describe, is to form generalizations about the way men and women tend to be. And so, I would disagree that our methods are the same for determining what qualifies as masculine and feminine, because I start with a different view of the concepts in which they have a basis in anatomy and serve an important psychological function in sexuality. Once again, I have to say that I need to give it more careful thought before I would try to argue those points, and that's what I will do before I comment any further.