Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

The 3 fundamentals axioms of objectivism

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Contrary to what many objectivists might think (unless they studied many other philosophical and metaphysical approaches of the universe), Ayn Rand hasn't invented the wheel with her 3 axioms of existence, conciousness and identity. The realisation of existence, consciousness and identity serve as the basis of many metaphysical system, now it all depends what do you want to cook with those ingredients and then fair enough objectivism has its own recipe, I personally don't find it very tasty but that is another debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't Ayn Rand know that she's supposed to use tarragon in her recipes?

But seriously, I don't think anyone is saying that Ayn Rand was particularly innovative with the branches of her philosophy.

Ayn Rand wasn't the first person to innovate Rational Egoism, nor was she the first person to come up with the idea that Egoism and Capitalism are harmonic. She acknowledged intellectual debt from many people.

Edited by Black Wolf
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Contrary to what many objectivists might think (unless they studied many other philosophical and metaphysical approaches of the universe), Ayn Rand hasn't invented the wheel with her 3 axioms of existence, conciousness and identity. The realisation of existence, consciousness and identity serve as the basis of many metaphysical system, now it all depends what do you want to cook with those ingredients and then fair enough objectivism has its own recipe, I personally don't find it very tasty but that is another debate.

Debate your personal tastes? What for?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Didn't Ayn Rand know that she's supposed to use tarragon in her recipes?

But seriously, I don't think anyone is saying that Ayn Rand was particularly innovative with the branches of her philosophy.

Ayn Rand wasn't the first person to innovate Rational Egoism, nor was she the first person to come up with the idea that Egoism and Capitalism are harmonic. She acknowledged intellectual debt from many people.

I haven't been very far in objectivism and I am no way an expert in that particular approach, I just bumped in the 3 fundamental axioms really. On a more general tone I have always wondered how can parts of the existence (conscious beings) were actually really able to conceive and and envisage existence. To put that in other words I am a bit unsure that something which exists in existence can actually give a proper definition of what existence is, in programming language it sounds a bit like a recursive function stucked in an infinite loop with no possibility to ever understand the superclass.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I haven't been very far in objectivism and I am no way an expert in that particular approach, I just bumped in the 3 fundamental axioms really. On a more general tone I have always wondered how can parts of the existence (conscious beings) were actually really able to conceive and and envisage existence. To put that in other words I am a bit unsure that something which exists in existence can actually give a proper definition of what existence is, in programming language it sounds a bit like a recursive function stucked in an infinite loop with no possibility to ever understand the superclass.

Its gonna take more than an internet forum to convince you that your sense evidence is valid. However, if you'd elaborate, I'm sure someone will give it a shot.

j..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will becoming an objectivist be of any assistance to improve my daily existence and bring more peace and harmony to my life?
I don't think there's any way for us to judge right now. We would have to know how irrational and disharmonious your current life is. The forum isn't really a psychological-help chat room and frankly I don't encourage people to publicly spill their guts, but if you can clarify the nature of those conflicts, our responses might be more meaningful.

On the other hand, if your interest is really about the philosophy itself, especially the status of the three axioms, the conversation would be rather different. I assume you're familiar with their exposition in Galt's speech; are you suggesting that some other (prior) philosopher has arranged those axioms in the same way to form the basis for an integrated philosophy? (If so, who is that philosopher?)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think there's any way for us to judge right now. We would have to know how irrational and disharmonious your current life is. The forum isn't really a psychological-help chat room and frankly I don't encourage people to publicly spill their guts, but if you can clarify the nature of those conflicts, our responses might be more meaningful.

On the other hand, if your interest is really about the philosophy itself, especially the status of the three axioms, the conversation would be rather different. I assume you're familiar with their exposition in Galt's speech; are you suggesting that some other (prior) philosopher has arranged those axioms in the same way to form the basis for an integrated philosophy? (If so, who is that philosopher?)

Is an irrational feeling or concept that bring inner peace and a general sense of harmony wrong per se ? Shall I say is the tool worth focusing on as long as it does the job?

Edited by hokken
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Will becoming an objectivist be of any assistance to improve my daily existence and bring more peace and harmony to my life? It is a genuine question, I would really appreciate some genuine answers.

Becoming an objectivist? Is that like 'becoming a christian'?

To 'become an objectivist' is dependent on choices, - the primary irreducible choice, to 'focus' - and a further choice in the realm of thought is to maintain the tie between one's mind and reality (existence).

The 'peace and harmony' comes from resolving an internal civil war between one's 'whims or wishes' and the external reality in which one exists. The axioms, you identified earlier, have a specific heirarchy.

Ayn Rand is the first one to consistantly apply the 'primacy of existence' throughout her entire philosophy. When you grasp the 'primacy of existence', which is done conceptually, the 'recursive function stuck in an infinite loop' can be replaced with eternal. As to what existence is, (matter) - Objectivism does not pretend to offer a definition for, rather identifies that that falls in the provence of Physics.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you prefer to sleep on a bed of nails it is up to you personally I like comfort.

If youre asserting that ignorance is bliss, then Objectivism isnt for you, at least not yet.

Dream_Weaver said this, I agree....

"The 'peace and harmony' comes from resolving an internal civil war between one's 'whims or wishes' and the external reality in which one exists."

good stuff.

j..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Is an irrational feeling or concept that bring inner peace and a general sense of harmony wrong per se ? Shall I say is the tool worth focusing on as long as it does the job?

This is pragmatism, not Objectivism. You cant win a war against reality in the long term. The tool to focus on is reason, and reason alone.

j..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I understand that the tool is more important than the job is it ?

Reason is the only tool. The 'job' is thinking. Anything else is irrationality.

The choice is yours.

The consequences (effects) are based on your choice (cause).

Edited by dream_weaver
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dream_weaver is right

Reason is the only tool. Anything else is irrationality.

The choice is yours.

The consequences (effects) are based on your choice (cause).

Reason's purpose, its job, is identification of what is.

If someone imagines they are achieving "harmony" or "peace" by choosing irrationality, their pupose, admited or not, is to protect some piece of blindness they have internalized.

Will that cause harm?

Will closing their eyes for a moment or so while driving their car cause harm?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So I understand that the tool is more important than the job is it ?

If the job is a flourishing life as a man, rational thought is the tool. If the job is a temporary whimsical escape from the burden of resposnibility of life as a man, try religion, or drugs.

j..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

...If someone imagines they are achieving "harmony" or "peace"

j..

I fundamentally don't disagree with you that the tool is reason, I just plainly disagree with the fact that objectivism makes it a constant and not a variable. Objectivism does not leave any room for subjective intuition (yet incomprehensible abstractions). Intuition cannot be quantified or measured but without it I suspect many scientists and inventors would not have discovered what they did. Also many apparently irrational processes are involved in many creative arts and often for the best. What might appear irrational today might become very rational tomorrow as consciousness expands, I never thought I would reach a final destination and never will.

Edited by hokken
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fundamentally don't disagree with you that the tool is reason, I just plainly disagree with the fact that objectivism makes it a constant and not a variable. Objectivism does not leave any room for subjective intuition (based on yet unknown concepts). Intuition cannot be quantified or measured but without it I suspect many scientists and inventors would not have discovered what they did. Also many apparently irrational processes are involved in many creative arts and I am glad that it is like that for the sake of my eyes and my ears.

I think that youre definition of "subjective intuition" would be helpfull. I suspect that it may differ from the Objectivist concept of intuition. If you could clarify your statement "based on yet unknown concepts" as an explanation for intuition... Or, explain how intuition is a means of gaining knowledge.

j..

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I think that youre definition of "subjective intuition" would be helpfull. I suspect that it may differ from the Objectivist concept of intuition. If you could clarify your statement "based on yet unknown concepts" as an explanation for intuition... Or, explain how intuition is a means of gaining knowledge.

j..

Sure, I would called objective intuition the capacity to generate a new concept but by extending already known concepts. In term of programming this is called subclassing. Subjective intuition is the ability to generate a superclass, an archetypal concept and probably something that could come close from an axiom. Let put it another way, a computer is able to produce a vast amount of calculations but whatever it does it only operates in binary mode because this is the way it is designed. I strongly believe that consciousness until a certain stage is designed in a way that limits its capacity to comprehend a higher type of abstractions. We are designed with limits, how could we comprehend the concept of infinity if we work in binary mode, but since I believe that conciousness like reason is a variable there is stages where new abstractions can be perceived, my main personal direct experience is the perception of the unity of substance, energy and consciousness. This is just the story of my peace nothing else...and nothing new.

Edited by hokken
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's not a serious answer and not an argument of any type. I thought you were serious.

David I am serious and I am sure that you know what I meant by that, does it need more clarifications ? As I said sleeping on a bed of nails is not wrong per se, it would just not be the favourite choice of the majority.

Edited by hokken
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I fundamentally don't disagree with you that the tool is reason, I just plainly disagree with the fact that objectivism makes it a constant and not a variable. Objectivism does not leave any room for subjective intuition (yet incomprehensible abstractions). Intuition cannot be quantified or measured but without it I suspect many scientists and inventors would not have discovered what they did. Also many apparently irrational processes are involved in many creative arts and often for the best. What might appear irrational today might become very rational tomorrow as consciousness expands, I never thought I would reach a final destination and never will.

Incomprehensible abstractions? Only when they sever the tie between the mind and reality.

Intuition cannot be quantified or measured? Are you speaking of quick and ready insight (familiarity with a subject?) or the power or faculty of attaining to direct knowledge or cognition without evident rational thought and inference - and what is that, a lucky guess?

Irrational=Rational, by what standard?

Is there an issue with concept formation here? "The truth or falsehood of all of man's conclusions, inferences, thought, and knowledge, rests on the truth or falsehood of his definitions."

When you understand that all valid definitions are based in some way from perceptual observations, - you will see that reality gives rise to concepts. A concept not based or tied to reality is incomprehensible, because there is nothing upon which to base the comprehension.

Have you considered an epistemological housecleaning?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...