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Capitalism and Prison Rape

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determinist
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I'm in the process of trying to learn about economics right now (reading Capitalism: An Unknown Ideal at the moment). The invisible hand seems to have a remarkably awesome series of logical arguments (e.g. monopolies, child labor laws, federal reserve/currency, etc.). Are there any laissez-faire capitalism explanations for how it could solve prison rape? I couldn't find anything about it anywhere else on the forum about it.

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I'm in the process of trying to learn about economics right now (reading Capitalism: An Unknown Ideal at the moment). The invisible hand seems to have a remarkably awesome series of logical arguments (e.g. monopolies, child labor laws, federal reserve/currency, etc.). Are there any laissez-faire capitalism explanations for how it could solve prison rape? I couldn't find anything about it anywhere else on the forum about it.

This begs the question, what connection exists between capitalism and prison rape for it to solve?

The question is nonsense. Why not ask "are there any Atkins diet cooking explanations for how it could solve traffic congestion?"

Edited by Greebo
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Doesn't prison rape most often stem from the fact that inmates run the place? What does the inmate-to-prison-security-staff ratio look like? If there are more inmates than staff, might this contribute?

If people are free to trade drugs and no laws prohibit it, would this cut down the prison inmate population? Would cutting down the prison inmate population allow a better handle on things?

What would funds for prison look like in a laissez-faire economy? What would prisons look like? Why?

What about the capacity for the government to do what is described what the first quote on this page explains?

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008...on-prison-rape/

If the truly government was ever truly below the people, what would the reaction to this look like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Rodney_Hulin

Do you think the same amount of prison rapes would occur if the market was liberated?

Edited by determinist
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This begs the question, what connection exists between capitalism and prison rape for it to solve?

I think hes falsely assuming that total economic freedom would extend beyond law abiding citizens to inside prison walls.

Or Im way off....

j..

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Doesn't prison rape most often stem from the fact that inmates run the place? What does the inmate-to-prison-security-staff ratio look like? If there are more inmates than staff, might this contribute?

What does capitalism have to do with Prison Rape?

If people are free to trade drugs and no laws prohibit it, would this cut down the prison inmate population? Would cutting down the prison inmate population allow a better handle on things?

Are you assuming that the majority of people in prison are in prison on drug charges, and that drug dealers are big on prison rape, while violent, psychopathic murderers and rapists are not?

What would funds for prison look like in a laissez-faire economy? What would prisons look like? Why?

Whatever the Government deems necessary and it is able to afford.

What about the capacity for the government to do what is described what the first quote on this page explains?

http://www.amptoons.com/blog/archives/2008...on-prison-rape/

I see nothing in the first quote on that page that proposes the Government will "do" anything.

If the truly government was ever truly below the people, what would the reaction to this look like?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_of_Rodney_Hulin

Why do you suppose the reaction would be any different under a properly limited Government.

Do you think the same amount of prison rapes would occur if the market was liberated?

I think there's no connection at all between prison rapes and taking restrictions off of people who have committed no crime (ie: freeing the market).

Criminals do not respect the rights of others. If a criminal violates anothers rights, and the Government decides they must be removed from society as a result, then you will have a population of people who don't respect others rights. A laissez-faire Government won't change that.

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The problem with prison rape is that you concentrate people who have essentially lost their incentive to behave according to law (being in prison already), who also never cared much for legality anyway (having committed crime). There's no real reason to expect them to not act as criminally as they desire, and since they are fed, housed, and care for medically - they have no rational reason to really do anything. Stopping rape means treating people like cattle.

The solution then has to do with criminality itself, and how the law deals with it (or, just managing the cattle better). This isn't really an economic question, but is in the realm of political philosophy. No 'invisible hand' will deal with violent criminals better. I'd say then to just make sure that maybe imprisonment isn't the proper punishment for non-violent offenders. Garnish wages, recompense damages, limit movement - but if the crime didn't involve violence, someone shouldn't be locked up like cattle with violent rapists.

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According to a friend of mine, not a Con, but someone working on the other side of the bars... there is far less rape and far more "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with" than the general public opinion accounts for.

Having said that I think the Atkins / traffic congestion diet is a more important avenue to pursue.

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I'm in the process of trying to learn about economics right now (reading Capitalism: An Unknown Ideal at the moment). The invisible hand seems to have a remarkably awesome series of logical arguments (e.g. monopolies, child labor laws, federal reserve/currency, etc.). Are there any laissez-faire capitalism explanations for how it could solve prison rape? I couldn't find anything about it anywhere else on the forum about it.

The invisible hand is not the government, so will never provide legal justice either outside a prison or within one. Only the visible hand of government can fix this. In laissez-faire capitalism the government has far less to do and the attention brought upon scandals as they occur would not be so diluted, nor the public so inured to them by their frequency.

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According to a friend of mine, not a Con, but someone working on the other side of the bars... there is far less rape and far more "If you can't be with the one you love, love the one you're with" than the general public opinion accounts for.

Having said that I think the Atkins / traffic congestion diet is a more important avenue to pursue.

As a corrections officer myself I can vouch for that. In almost two years working in the prison system, at two separate prisons I have heard of three prison rapes.

As for the person who said "separate cells," that would be nice however the prison system is overloaded. I mean we are double bunking as it is and will soon start triple bunking.

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What does capitalism have to do with Prison Rape?

I never said it did. I was wondering that myself. The consensus in these replies is that it has little to nothing to do with it.

Are you assuming that the majority of people in prison are in prison on drug charges, and that drug dealers are big on prison rape, while violent, psychopathic murderers and rapists are not?

No.

Whatever the Government deems necessary and it is able to afford.

I figured that much. I was asking because I wasn't sure if any ideas about how much could be nonarbitrarily speculated, and if so, what those speculations look like.

Why do you suppose the reaction would be any different under a properly limited Government.

If it were true that I supposed the reaction would be different, why would I ask if it would be different?

I think there's no connection at all between prison rapes and taking restrictions off of people who have committed no crime (ie: freeing the market).

Criminals do not respect the rights of others. If a criminal violates anothers rights, and the Government decides they must be removed from society as a result, then you will have a population of people who don't respect others rights. A laissez-faire Government won't change that.

Interesting. Thanks for the reply.

As a corrections officer myself I can vouch for that. In almost two years working in the prison system, at two separate prisons I have heard of three prison rapes.

I have often heard it said that "never snitch" is one of the most important rules for surviving in prison. I just Googled "how to survive in prison" and the first 2 links had mention of that rule:

http://www.wikihow.com/Survive-in-Federal-Prison

http://www.askmen.com/money/how_to_300/341_how_to.html

It makes me wonder if the number of rapes you heard about are nearly as much as the real amount committed.

Also, I'm not sure if counting numbers is the key to morality. That rings a little too utilitarian-like. I think the government ensuring protection of an individual is a bigger issue. Many drug offenders have not violated anyone's rights. That's not the only example. There are people in prison for refusing to pay taxes. Should the idea of a person who refused to pay taxes serve as the basis for an apologetic argument to justify excessively cruel and unusual punishments, like prison rape? Should disorderly conduct serve as the basis for an apologetic argument to justify excessively cruel and unusual punishments, like prison rape?

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I never said it did. I was wondering that myself. The consensus in these replies is that it has little to nothing to do with it.

Meanwhile, in the opening argument of your topic as well as the topic title itself:

I'm in the process of trying to learn about economics right now (reading Capitalism: An Unknown Ideal at the moment). The invisible hand seems to have a remarkably awesome series of logical arguments (e.g. monopolies, child labor laws, federal reserve/currency, etc.). Are there any laissez-faire capitalism explanations for how it could solve prison rape? I couldn't find anything about it anywhere else on the forum about it.

While you did not state specifically that it did, you certainly allude to it by tossing the subject and the predicate into the same sentence.

A deterministic attempt to stir up the O'pot?

Edited by dream_weaver
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Meanwhile, in the opening argument of your topic as well as the topic title itself:

The title "Capitalism and Prison Rape" is a perfectly fitting title for a person who is trying to research whether there is any relation between the two (and what that relation is if one exists). The title is not an implicit assertion.

Also, what you're referencing appears not to be an opening argument. I was under the impression that an argument (at least, according to a logic text book) involves a statement or statements claimed to support another statement. Maybe you meant argument in another sense of the word that I'm unaware of?

While you did not state specifically that it did, you certainly allude to it by tossing the subject and the predicate into the same sentence.

The question you quoted in boldface specifically asks if there is a causal relation. Suppose you replied "no" and then I tried to make an argument like "see??? capitalism doesn't solve everything!"

Then I'd agree with you that there's something flawed about what I asserted.

A deterministic attempt to stir up the O'pot?

Do you think I read Ayn Rand books for the purpose of stirring people up? lol. I like philosophy. I like learning. In fact, I find the arguments for capitalism in Ayn Rand's books very amazing. I am talking about them all the time to my father, friends, and coworkers. There's a reason I ask the opinions of these forum members and not fundamentalist Christian forum members.

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Also, I'm not sure if counting numbers is the key to morality. That rings a little too utilitarian-like. I think the government ensuring protection of an individual is a bigger issue. Many drug offenders have not violated anyone's rights. That's not the only example. There are people in prison for refusing to pay taxes. Should the idea of a person who refused to pay taxes serve as the basis for an apologetic argument to justify excessively cruel and unusual punishments, like prison rape? Should disorderly conduct serve as the basis for an apologetic argument to justify excessively cruel and unusual punishments, like prison rape?

In a truly capitalist society no one would be in prison for these things (taxes,drug use,etc)so that part of your question is moot.

Disorderly conduct, while an arrestable offense wouldn't land one in federal prison.

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The title "Capitalism and Prison Rape" is a perfectly fitting title for a person who is trying to research whether there is any relation between the two (and what that relation is if one exists). The title is not an implicit assertion.

An unusual combination to try to correlate.

Also, what you're referencing appears not to be an opening argument. I was under the impression that an argument (at least, according to a logic text book) involves a statement or statements claimed to support another statement. Maybe you meant argument in another sense of the word that I'm unaware of?

As Greebo pointed out, as structured, it appears to beg the question.

The question you quoted in boldface specifically asks if there is a causal relation. Suppose you replied "no" and then I tried to make an argument like "see??? capitalism doesn't solve everything!"

Then I'd agree with you that there's something flawed about what I asserted.

Even with the general consensus being against, not that consensus is a reliable means to ascertain truth, searching for another way to link the two together does show persistance. Persistance can be a good thing.

Do you think I read Ayn Rand books for the purpose of stirring people up? lol. I like philosophy. I like learning. In fact, I find the arguments for capitalism in Ayn Rand's books very amazing. I am talking about them all the time to my father, friends, and coworkers. There's a reason I ask the opinions of these forum members and not fundamentalist Christian forum members.

These forum members. in my short time here, do manifest an interesting cross-section of ideologies, not just objectivism.

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These forum members. in my short time here, do manifest an interesting cross-section of ideologies, not just objectivism.

I do not consider myself an objectivist, so i guess I fall into that category too. I'm a fan of Ayn Rand in the same way I'm a fan of Richard Dawkins. I disagree with some things they say but greatly enjoy a lot of their works.

Disorderly conduct, while an arrestable offense wouldn't land one in federal prison.

I did not merely mean federal prisons when I mentioned prisons.

Edited by determinist
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You got your quotes wrong. I am not a corrections officer.

As for the phrasing of the question "Are there any laissez-faire capitalism explanations for how it could solve prison rape?" - that question does strongly imply a causal relationship between capitalism and prison rape.

If you wanted to know if there simply WERE a causal relationship, then the question should have been "Is there any causal relationship between laissez-faire capitalism and prison rape, and if so what would the effect be on PR by LFC?"

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In a truly capitalist society no one would be in prison for these things (taxes,drug use,etc)so that part of your question is moot.

Disorderly conduct, while an arrestable offense wouldn't land one in federal prison.

Good point, especially given my remark that separate prison cells (meaning no physical contact between prisoners) would solve this. Johnfrey mentioned the prison system being overloaded, but without the hordes of marijuana smokers et al being locked up, maybe this wouldn't be an issue.

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It makes me wonder if the number of rapes you heard about are nearly as much as the real amount committed.

In looking at the one list of things to do to survive prison, I noticed it didn't include, "Don't let yourself get ass-raped daily." I think that would probably conflict with the don't snitch rule. I'm thinking that if a straight guy (and I'm not necessarily assuming a gay guy wants to be raped but....) gets raped, one of three things is most likely going to happen; 1) he's going to fight back or get revenge (which is likely to come to the attention of corrections officers, 2) he's going to snitch (obviously coming to the attention of the corrections officers), or 3) he's going to go completely bonkers (which the corrections officers will probably notice). I don't think it's very likely that a straight guy is just going to suck it up (no pun intended) and take his raping as part of surviving prison although I suppose it's possible. Thus, I'm guessing that the no snitching rule takes a back seat to some things when you are the one being victimized.

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I'm in the process of trying to learn about economics right now (reading Capitalism: An Unknown Ideal at the moment). The invisible hand seems to have a remarkably awesome series of logical arguments (e.g. monopolies, child labor laws, federal reserve/currency, etc.). Are there any laissez-faire capitalism explanations for how it could solve prison rape? I couldn't find anything about it anywhere else on the forum about it.

The short answer is, it wouldn't. A laissez-faire country is not a utopia. Under capitalism there would still be rape inside prison, and out. That's to say nothing of murder, theft, fraud, and any variety of crimes will undoubtedly continue to exist.

We could surmise that it would lessen these activities like it has child labor over time. If, as mentioned above, the 90%(?) of people in prison on drug related charges were not there, they would, necessarily not be prison raped. Likewise, increases in over all prosperity causes fewer people to steal out of necessity(perceived or actual), so that demographic would not be prison raped either. Statism, by comparison makes nearly everyone a criminal(law breaker) eventually. Because the few real criminals that exist(murderers, rapists, etc) would be such a small number, they could, financially speaking, be held longer and observed more tightly. Additionally the technological advances which capitalism yields could be utilized for tighter and, increasingly, cheaper observation. More cameras and software that measures and monitors behavior, for example.

Now, all that said, there is always this assumption embedded in these sorts of questions that these things are taken care of now and that people under capitalism would somehow be worse. Generally, it's the view that people are bad and with out the government people who are good, we'd have no way of behaving correctly or dealing with problems that arise.

After two lawsuits, road owners would put restrictions on driving while intoxicated. The banks who lend money for homes would include in the 50 pages of contract a page that included an escrow payment for road access because they know that people who cant leave their house to buy food will starve to death and not repay the loan. If water prices get high enough people will start using waterless toilets and somebody with a helicopter will make money by airlifting in.

What it all comes down to is whether you view man as fundamentally good or bad, and if bad, whether you can maintain the contradictory view that becoming a bureaucrat will suddenly make them better.

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  • 1 month later...

There are many reasons why someone would have to go to prison as the result of committing a felony (misdemeanors result in jail sentences). Most of the prison population in the United States are currently serving time for non-violent crimes, with convictions related from drug charges resulting in the largest percentage and then there are also white collar crimes that result in prison sentences.

I always thought it was strange that if someone committed a non-violent crime and was sentenced to prison, that it would automatically put them at risk of violence while inside of prison (including being raped).

I would expect the same judicial system (although not a perfect one) that investigates a crime, prosecutes it, enables a fair trial and sentencing to also have the ability to make sure that once someone enters prison walls that they will not be forced to have sex against their will (raped). The fact is, that it could be prevented, but the people that are subject to the risk of being raped in prison, by the time they are already serving their sentences are felons, and noboby cares what happens to felons. I would think that the risk of having that happen as well, in the case of most first time offenders in felony cases (state or federal) would give prosecutors an advantage during a plea bargain stage prior to going to trial because any avoidance of going to prison would naturally also mean, being able to avoid being raped which in itself could be worse than a period of years of just being incarcerated without the risk of being raped.

A sentence of a few years for drug trafficking, possesion or sale - or a white collar crime, should not result in a person being exposed to the risk of being raped in prison, or even possibly murdered by a violent inmate. I think that when the state takes on the responsibility of charging suspects with crimes and operating a venue for a trial that it has an equal responsibility to ensure that the person does the time they are sentenced to but are not at risk for being raped.

S.O.

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I always thought it was strange that if someone committed a non-violent crime and was sentenced to prison, that it would automatically put them at risk of violence while inside of prison (including being raped).

I would expect the same judicial system (although not a perfect one) that investigates a crime, prosecutes it, enables a fair trial and sentencing to also have the ability to make sure that once someone enters prison walls that they will not be forced to have sex against their will (raped). The fact is, that it could be prevented, but the people that are subject to the risk of being raped in prison, by the time they are already serving their sentences are felons, and noboby cares what happens to felons. I would think that the risk of having that happen as well, in the case of most first time offenders in felony cases (state or federal) would give prosecutors an advantage during a plea bargain stage prior to going to trial because any avoidance of going to prison would naturally also mean, being able to avoid being raped which in itself could be worse than a period of years of just being incarcerated without the risk of being raped.

A sentence of a few years for drug trafficking, possesion or sale - or a white collar crime, should not result in a person being exposed to the risk of being raped in prison, or even possibly murdered by a violent inmate. I think that when the state takes on the responsibility of charging suspects with crimes and operating a venue for a trial that it has an equal responsibility to ensure that the person does the time they are sentenced to but are not at risk for being raped.

S.O.

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