Introduction and Personal Notes

[DancingBear]

Hello all. I'm glad to finally interact with other objectivists. Personal experience has revealed the pervasiveness of the morality of death surrounding me.

Maybe I should start from the beginning. I haven't always been objectivist. I have always been thoughtful and questioning though, for which I was often reprimanded. As I matured I struggled to ignore reason and the truth in order to fit in.

And then I read Atlas Shrugged. And then I read the Fountainhead. And I have continued reading objectivist literature.

Now I seem to be becoming more ostracized for my morality. Ostracized because a large number of societal norms are irrational (i.e. waving to unknown neighbors, apologizing for others faults, believing in a god...). However I am happier knowing that I'm right and reality will ultimately prove others wrong.

So I'm glad that I'm not completely alone among six-billion others.

[softwareNerd]

Welcome to OO.net.

If you have not got to it already, I suggest Letters of Ayn Rand. (I make this recommendation based on your comment about waving to neighbors.)

[khaight]

(I make this recommendation based on your comment about waving to neighbors.)

That one struck me as a bit odd too. Could you explain what you think is irrational about waving to an unknown neighbor? Under what circumstances? I know I'd feel more comfortable in a neighborhood in which I was met with friendly waves than one in which I was met with flat, hostile stares.

More generally, I think it's important to understand that while principles of ettiquette may be arbitrary -- there's no reason to put the fork on the left other than that we live in a culture in which that is the norm -- but that doesn't make them irrational.

[DancingBear]

Could you explain what you think is irrational about waving to an unknown neighbor?

I (try to) operate and act only when I have rational reasons to do so. Perhaps you can enlighten me, but in the suburbs of America I find no reason to greet most of my neighbors, especially considering these are often the only encounters between neighbors. Besides, I believe most of my neighbors are altruists and therefore I would rather deliver a hostile stare than a friendly wave.

[RationalBiker]

I (try to) operate and act only when I have rational reasons to do so.

I have found that a wave to someone and perhaps a kind greeting costs my nothing but may well be a wise investment. In return, I may gain the benevolence of a nearby person should some need for assistance rise. In the neighborhood where I live, I can be fairly assured that next guy, at the very least, earns his own way in life. I think the concept of justice in this case means the person has at least earned some small measure of benevolence from me in return, particularly when it is free.

Of course, one can always choose to be that 'asshole' next door. One can choose to be an island to himself surrounded by a sea of traders.

Also, there is no dogma in Objectivism that declares one must glare and throw stones at anyone who might happen to show some sign they may have altruistic characteristics.

[khaight]

I (try to) operate and act only when I have rational reasons to do so. Perhaps you can enlighten me, but in the suburbs of America I find no reason to greet most of my neighbors, especially considering these are often the only encounters between neighbors. Besides, I believe most of my neighbors are altruists and therefore I would rather deliver a hostile stare than a friendly wave.

Wow, way to work that benevolent universe premise. Absent any specific evidence to the contrary, my default presumption about people I meet is that they're earning their own living and are consequently rational to at least that extent. I'd also point out that one of the core principles of the Objectivist social ethic is the trader principle. If you want to obtain values from others you must trade for them -- and you can't trade without offering.

One final thought. Through your actions, you are an ambassador for your principles and values. What kind of message are you sending to those around you about them, their effectiveness and contribution to your happiness?

[CapitalistSwine]

I believe most of my neighbors are altruists and therefore I would rather deliver a hostile stare than a friendly wave.

So you believe its rational to make unnecessary enemies out of those that live near you? Interesting.

There are times where people take this "being 100% rational" unrealistically far. I think this is one of those cases, as can be seen by the fact that every Objectivist that has posted on here has felt the need to address the neighbor wave comment specifically.

Edited May 12, 2010 by CapitalistSwine

[Grames]

Mr. Spock is not a model of human rationality. Do not try to be emotionless, it cannot be done and is counterproductive to even attempt.

[Zip]

DancingBear, I hope you are still around and have not run away from this all too Objectivist of a greeting (your premises being checked). This isn't a pile on, it's a learning opportunity.

Welcome to oo.net.

[CapitalistSwine]

DancingBear, I hope you are still around and have not run away from this all too Objectivist of a greeting (your premises being checked). This isn't a pile on, it's a learning opportunity.

Welcome to oo.net.

Agreed

[DancingBear]

No I haven't run away. I just jogged around the block (I didn't wave to anyone).

I did kind of get dizzy reading the replies but thanks anyway. I like a good buzz.

[JohnWilson]

Well nice information. I read & enjoyed. Thanks

[Mindy]

It's just possible that you and I live in the same neighborhood. Either way, welcome to Objectivism Online. There are definitely factions here.

Mindy

[ScarlettCatherwood]

I don't usually wave at people. However, I don't give them hostile stares either. Unless I have a reason to.

Often, I find it depends on the actions of the person doing the waving. Around here people wave to every car that goes by. My dad does it. He doesn't pay any attention to the people he waves at, he doesn't care if they wave back. It's an automatic reaction for him. I don't wave to those people. I have no reason to. The majority of waves I see are like this. That's why I don't do it very often.

But when someone looks at me and waves, especially if they smile, I wave back. Then I know they actually care about the result of their efforts.

And no, I don't usually stop and analyze every aspect of someone's body laguage to see if they're showing enough enthusiasm. I haven't actually thought about it much, until this thread. Interesting discussion.

Welcome.