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This is a question that involves a relatively practical application of Objectivism...although I consider myself more or less well read and able to problem solve on an abstract level, I cannot help but get caught in a rut in certain social, day-to-day situations. When I'm emotionally invested sometimes it's difficult to become impartial and think about whether certain emotions are justified.

I have been seeing someone for nearly a year (also an objectivist) and I've been confused as to how I should feel about his neglect to (once in a while) take me out on a date. When I say "date" I mean he has never, EVER actually bought me a drink or paid whenever we have gone out to eat together. Or ever bought me anything just because he wanted to do something nice. Whenever we go out, we try and split everything equally between the two of us.

Is it okay to expect that the man you're spending time with once and a while pay for you (especially on the first few dates) and to feel disappointed when this does not happen? Typical social conventions dictate that if a man pays for you he's probably interested in a relationship that extends beyond simple friendship. However, when I went on the first few "dates" with my current boyfriend I had no way of knowing whether he was interested in me because he did not pay. In no way was he in a financial situation that prevented him from investing even the smallest of efforts (buying me coffee, for instance). This causes me to believe that perhaps this social practice isn't arbitrary, that there's a purpose behind it.

I don't expect him to spend every cent he has on me at all. I just feel disappointed because his lack of doing this once in a while causes me to feel as if I'm not his girlfriend, just a friend he happens to spend time with. I want to do nice and thoughtful things for him in the same way, but I also feel as if he's the one who should initiate the thought...otherwise, why should I feel motivated to reciprocate? Because of this I sometimes feel uncomfortable in my own relationship...as if the worry of splitting the bill equally is ruining the natural flow of our desire to do nice things for one another and express our value for one another in meaningful ways.

Some thoughts on this matter from other Objectivists would be helpful

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Maybe this is too obvious, but have you asked him why he does not pay for anything? Some oddly strict dollar based application of not giving or receiving "unearned" wealth? Or for that matter, are you certain he is interested in you romantically, otherwise?

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There are 2 ways this can turn out, which I personally think are clear as day. Either there is some confusion about the issue and it may be philosophically interconnected as aequalsa pointed out or this is not a true relationship. So I would discuss the matter with him so you know which course of action to take. Resolving the issue via communication or through lack thereof.

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Maybe this is too obvious, but have you asked him why he does not pay for anything? Some oddly strict dollar based application of not giving or receiving "unearned" wealth? Or for that matter, are you certain he is interested in you romantically, otherwise?

Yes I should (and will) ask. But I thought it interesting to know what other people think about this issue. I'm not looking for others to really help with solving this personal problem. I think I stand correct in saying that what's happening here is a bit awkward. I know that I feel awkward, so there's a rational explanation for it.

I am certain that he's interested. We are definitely together--there are other concrete ways of demonstrating romantic interest. But I think that this should be done in a variety of ways...not just one way. If romantic interests is demonstrated in various ways across different contexts than its far more consistent and accurate....and no social awkwardness as a result. :-(

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I'm absolutely a cheapskate, but not when it comes to romance. Imagine living everyday under the same roof with someone like that - I picture him obsessively calculating his power use, his food consumption, etc, and contributing not a cent more or less. Is that love?

You could test him out by buying dinner *for him*, and seeing what his reaction is. If he flips out, then you need to decide if that is someone you want to be with.

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I've been there. I truly suggest you dump this cheapskate. Since you are vieweing this from an objectivist perspective, I'll remind you how much pleasure Rearden got from giving Dagny presents.

Really. Dump him. I've learned that a man who is financially stingy is also emotionally stingy.

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You could test him out by buying dinner *for him*, and seeing what his reaction is. If he flips out, then you need to decide if that is someone you want to be with.

That's a little passive for my tastes. I would recommend a more direct conversation.

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I would guess he either does not care for you enough, or - more likely - holds the belief that staying mutually independent (re money) will better tell the true worth of the relationship (vs. one "buying" the favor of the other).

Like Aeq said, just ask.

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I've been there. I truly suggest you dump this cheapskate. Since you are vieweing this from an objectivist perspective, I'll remind you how much pleasure Rearden got from giving Dagny presents.

There's no reason that couldn't be reversed and say the female in such a scenario is the one being a cheapskate (I'm not suggesting that the OP is).

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Depends on your view of how a proper relationship should work, personally I always pay on the first date (most dates, really, but whos counting), but appreciate that she makes some sort of effort to pay for herself aswell - just to wave it off as absurd :D.

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Maybe that's the problem. We(men) as a group tend to be. I'd bet two to one that he has some weird explanation for it that only makes sense in his mind because he hasn't said it out loud. I'd just ask him.

I agree. It's probably some misconstrued interpretation of the philosophy (wouldn't be the first time that happened). To have a discussion about his perspective on the issue would most likely clear everything up...in a good way. Hopefully. Communication can reveal both positive and negative things, which most likely explains my fear and evasiveness.

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This is a question that involves a relatively practical application of Objectivism...although I consider myself more or less well read and able to problem solve on an abstract level, I cannot help but get caught in a rut in certain social, day-to-day situations. When I'm emotionally invested sometimes it's difficult to become impartial and think about whether certain emotions are justified.

I have been seeing someone for nearly a year (also an objectivist) and I've been confused as to how I should feel about his neglect to (once in a while) take me out on a date. When I say "date" I mean he has never, EVER actually bought me a drink or paid whenever we have gone out to eat together. Or ever bought me anything just because he wanted to do something nice. Whenever we go out, we try and split everything equally between the two of us.

Is it okay to expect that the man you're spending time with once and a while pay for you (especially on the first few dates) and to feel disappointed when this does not happen? Typical social conventions dictate that if a man pays for you he's probably interested in a relationship that extends beyond simple friendship. However, when I went on the first few "dates" with my current boyfriend I had no way of knowing whether he was interested in me because he did not pay. In no way was he in a financial situation that prevented him from investing even the smallest of efforts (buying me coffee, for instance). This causes me to believe that perhaps this social practice isn't arbitrary, that there's a purpose behind it.

I don't expect him to spend every cent he has on me at all. I just feel disappointed because his lack of doing this once in a while causes me to feel as if I'm not his girlfriend, just a friend he happens to spend time with. I want to do nice and thoughtful things for him in the same way, but I also feel as if he's the one who should initiate the thought...otherwise, why should I feel motivated to reciprocate? Because of this I sometimes feel uncomfortable in my own relationship...as if the worry of splitting the bill equally is ruining the natural flow of our desire to do nice things for one another and express our value for one another in meaningful ways.

Some thoughts on this matter from other Objectivists would be helpful

To say that this is yet another misunderstanding and misapplication of the virtue of selfishness on his part might be a little premature. I've heard of this kind of thing before though.

It is absolutely OK for a man to take his sweetheart out to dinner, IF he finds her a value in his life and he likes that kind of thing. It seems that you do. How important is it to you? Does he like that kind of thing? Keep in mind that if he doesn't, it's not right to ask him that he make it important to him.

I also noticed that you said that you are confused as to how you SHOULD feel. Forget about that. Honestly. Forget about how you ought to feel and only pay attention to how you actually do feel. It makes introspection a lot easier. The underlying ideas will tell you whether the basis of your feelings are rational or not.

I think everyone who suggested that you ask him is on the right track. I also think framing it properly is important so that you come off as sincere. If this really bothers you, and it sounds like it does, I think the most tactful and direct way is to just state it plainly:

"(whatever his name is), I know that you're not trying to upset me, but I feel (however it is that you feel) about you never taking me out for a drink, taking me out on a date, carrying me across the threshold, making pina coladas for me on Friday night before the football game, whatever...and it's something that's important to me."

It's important that he understands that you are sincere in your concern and not just nagging him or complaining. And then you proceed to have an adult conversation about it, keeping in mind that you're not adversaries and there's no need to actually fight over anything. If he's mature, he'll discuss it rationally with you.

I can speak from experience, however, that if a woman does not express her wants to a man, the man is not going to be able to read her mind (nope, we're not mind readers) and the relationship could, depending on how serious the wants are, go down in flames just like the Hindenburg.

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I've been there. I truly suggest you dump this cheapskate. Since you are vieweing this from an objectivist perspective, I'll remind you how much pleasure Rearden got from giving Dagny presents.

Really. Dump him. I've learned that a man who is financially stingy is also emotionally stingy.

And this is exactly why most relationships fail. Lack of communication. Act first think later, right?!?

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Find out as much as possible about this person. Is he trying to use you? What is his history of personal relationships like? What are his philosophical convictions? Be curious, but do not expect your boyfriend himself to tell you everything himself. You may have to talk to other people who know him. Make sure that you can trust them.

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I agree communication's important, but if this guy NEVER takes you out and NEVER pays for anything, I'm sorry, it's not mind-reading to say he should know better. He just does't care or he has some weird ideas about independence. I'd say watch him closely. If he makes no effort to please you, why are you dating him?

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You should give time to each other to know about, maybe he was not ready to pay at that time on your first date, can be any problems, might be he wants to judge you.. it can be any reason, but to make your relationship last you should talk to each other, its better to understand each other emotions, problems.. Like one of the member said.. its better to think first and act last...

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Communication is very important in a relationship. Make sure you communicate how this makes you feel to him, not just to us.

Have you read the 5 Love Languages? I don't agree with the Christian overtones in this book, but I do think people tend to express their love for someone in one or two of the "languages" primarily, not all of them. The five are: words of affirmation, quality time, receiving gifts, acts of service, and physical touch. Maybe this guy prefers to express his feelings for you in words, or in the time he spends with you, not in terms of monetary value.

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