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Mosque on the Twin Towers ruins

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It is a free country. That doesn't mean people have to stay silent about it. Not only can we pass moral judgment, but we should pass moral judgment on people and organizations for their actions.

When the religion that destroyed those towers and killed a few thousand American citizens gets to erect a monument in its name right next to the ruins, I'd question the judgment of anyone who isn't outraged.

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It is a free country. That doesn't mean people have to stay silent about it. Not only can we pass moral judgment, but we should pass moral judgment on people and organizations for their actions.

When the religion that destroyed those towers and killed a few thousand American citizens gets to erect a monument in its name right next to the ruins, I'd question the judgment of anyone who isn't outraged.

I'd question the judgement of anyone who writes what you just wrote, about 9/11, an is satisfied with it as an accurate description of what happened.

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I would like to throw out some facts that I have learned about this story.

The mosque in question has been there for some time. They have purchased the rest of the building and are planning to renovate the whole building and make it taller.

The location is one block down and a half of a block around the corner.

I personally am opposed to all religions. Christianity is just as odious as Islam.

David McBride

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Damn Jake, do you intentionally go out of your way to insult everyone?

No, the reason why I bother you every time you make an irrational statement on this here open forum is to set the record straight. I don't aim to insult you, in fact I don't care about your feelings either way.

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I would like to correct some of what I wrote earlier.

The Cordoba House project is 2 1/2 blocks away, not 1 1/2.

Muslims have been worshipping there since they purchased the building July 2009.

For an article covering the history of the building see http://www.nytimes.com/2009/12/09/nyregion...mp;pagewanted=1

Plans have been announced by a second group to build a smaller mosque even closer, but they do not have a location yet.

There is a group that has formed to protest the Cordoba House, they plan a rally on June 6,

their website is http://sioaonline.com/

David McBride

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No, the reason why I bother you every time you make an irrational statement on this here open forum is to set the record straight. I don't aim to insult you, in fact I don't care about your feelings either way.

Actually, you insulted Amoraq. You do not hurt my tender feelings in the least - you are just some guy on the internet.

There is such a concept known as tact.

As to my perceived irrationality, that is a matter of opinion. B)

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http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2010/0...oves_ahead.html

Yeah, let's put an Islamic mosque right next to the ruins of the Twin Towers. Thank you very much and fuck you too.

Did I take a wrong turn? Is this the Rush Limbaugh forum? I can't tell the difference based on this thread that is founded on emotions rather than rational thought.

I don't in any way advocate that Oists should be asking themselves "What would Rand say/do" but this might be a good instance for you to do that.

There is a fine line between properly criticizing a group/religion and improperly criticizing one and I strong believe the latter is the case here. I am frankly becoming a bit concerned by the unfounded animosity in various contexts by some of the Oists that visit this board when it comes to followers of Islam and a few other things. Not all of them are bomb carrying Jihadists.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Did I take a wrong turn? Is this the Rush Limbaugh forum? I can't tell the difference based on this thread that is founded on emotions rather than rational thought.
Not all Christians want to kill gays, either, but the fact remains that all forms of Christianity preach the virtue of altruism, which is an endless source of problems in the world.

Your criticism of the OP is unfair. In the context of downtown NYC, a mere two blocks from the 9/11 attacks which indisputably came about because of the Muslim religion, a mosque where this religion may flourish is in bad taste. Even if all of New Yorkers can use the facilities, even if all of the founders have never explicitly preached animosity toward America, even if the founders claim as a goal to promote understanding between Americans and Muslims.

Or are you arguing for tolerance toward Muslims?

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Not all Christians want to kill gays, either, but the fact remains that all forms of Christianity preach the virtue of altruism, which is an endless source of problems in the world.

Your criticism of the OP is unfair. In the context of downtown NYC, a mere two blocks from the 9/11 attacks which indisputably came about because of the Muslim religion, a mosque where this religion may flourish is in bad taste. Even if all of New Yorkers can use the facilities, even if all of the founders have never explicitly preached animosity toward America, even if the founders claim as a goal to promote understanding between Americans and Muslims.

Or are you arguing for tolerance toward Muslims?

So what do you suggest to be done? For these people to be forced to move the Mosque elsewhere? This is what I am getting at here. Christianity has caused just as much blood to be spilled due to their religion, no one is going to rant and rave if we put a church up near an abortion clinic that was blown up.

I am arguing for objective criticism of the Muslim population (i.e. not through wide brush stereotypes but by individual merit of each of them), nothing more nothing less. It may be "in bad taste" but thats as far as this goes. We can't do anything about it, nor should anything be done about it. Yes people can criticize it, and they have every right to, but I don't see the point in this case frankly. Its almost like there is this new for of McCarthyism starting to sprout in America.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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When a friend of mine originally tipped me off to the story he was confused. He told me that they planned to build a mosque at ground zero with taxpayer funds. As far as I understand it, this is not the case. While I might take the placement of any mosque any nearer to ground zero as a slap in the face, so long as it is privately a funded effort I have no right to use force to prevent it. If you're upset, write a letter to the people responsible and convince them to give up their religion. Good luck.

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So what do you suggest to be done?

[...]

I am arguing for objective criticism of the Muslim population (i.e. not through wide brush stereotypes but by individual merit of each of them), nothing more nothing less.

I can't comment on perceived McCarthyism parallels that are upsetting you because I haven't noticed one way or another. Also, the OP did not suggest using force against the funders of this mosque, and neither did I. You took that out of this thread yourself. All that was commented about was whether outrage is appropriate or not.

You also seem to be suggesting that outrage should be given, or not, based one what people generally are getting outraged about. Why do you see no point in outrage over something you admit causes bloodshed? You also can't say on one hand that the Muslim religion causes bloodshed while on the other not acknowledging the religion as a whole at all, instead only the individuals within the religion. That is a false dichotomy, as the religion and its individuals may both be judged.

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Ayn Rand approved of McCarthyism insomuch as it was a movement by the government designed to root out members of the Communist Party of America which had by that time already sabotaged the security of the country. It was a matter of national security to discover its members and investigate them. Is Islam much different?

Can you stop the Muslims from building or expanding their mosque right next to the WTC? No. What can you do? Post your disgust about it on the internet. Amaroq did not say 'We should go out and protest this' or anything of that kind, all he did was voice his disgust at the idea.

If you think Islam is just like any other religion today and it deserves no worse treatment than Christianity or Buddhism then you're dropping the context of a holy book which advocates violence and its followers who do not adhere to the typical Christian 'We don't follow it that closely' mentality. It is the foulest breed of multiculturalism to say that a culture spawned from countries so mired in the dark ages deserves as much respect and credibility as any other.

I'm not saying the government should stop this, I'm not saying I'm going to go out and protest this, all I'm saying is it's in poor taste for the Muslims to keep that temple near the site of this disaster and I wish the muslim religion would just disappear from this world, that the people involved in it would finally be free to advance to the next stage of civilization.

Call me Rush Limbaugh if you wish, I'm personally so detached and so vehemently in disagreement with the man and most of what he stands for that I consider the comparison too ridiculous to imagine in earnest.

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I'll admit that I think I made a mistake. I was under the impression that the mosque was going to be built a much shorter distance away from the twin towers, and that it wasn't already built yet. However, I still consider it to be both an insult to Americans and a victory flag to the Muslim world that there is a mosque that close to the twin towers ruins.

I apologize if I committed the argument from intimidation fallacy earlier. But I do believe this action is morally reprehensible and ought to be condemned.

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It is a free country. That doesn't mean people have to stay silent about it. Not only can we pass moral judgment, but we should pass moral judgment on people and organizations for their actions.

Agreed.

Edited by Axiomatic
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Maybe I am just having an off day, I don't know. I just find it interesting that I seem to take much less offense to this than many of you and I lost family members and friends in that attack. I have no idea if anyone else here has however. Also, yes, I am aware of her views on McCarthyism.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Ayn Rand approved of McCarthyism insomuch as it was a movement by the government designed to root out members of the Communist Party of America which had by that time already sabotaged the security of the country. It was a matter of national security to discover its members and investigate them. Is Islam much different?

Yes. The difference is the very thing you cited as Rand's reason to consider the Communist Party a threat.

Can you stop the Muslims from building or expanding their mosque right next to the WTC? No. What can you do? Post your disgust about it on the internet. Amaroq did not say 'We should go out and protest this' or anything of that kind, all he did was voice his disgust at the idea.

Actually, he declared that the Muslim religion took down those towers, and complained that now they "get" to erect a monument there.

I can't imagine how that suggests peaceful disagreement.

If you think Islam is just like any other religion today and it deserves no worse treatment than Christianity or Buddhism then you're dropping the context of a holy book which advocates violence and its followers who do not adhere to the typical Christian 'We don't follow it that closely' mentality. It is the foulest breed of multiculturalism to say that a culture spawned from countries so mired in the dark ages deserves as much respect and credibility as any other.

I do think Christianity and Buddhism are no better than Islam, and I do have the same amount of disrespect for all three. You could agree or disagree with that, but either way, claiming my position is multiculturalism would be wrong.

I'm not saying the government should stop this, I'm not saying I'm going to go out and protest this, all I'm saying is it's in poor taste for the Muslims to keep that temple near the site of this disaster

They don't mean to make you feel that way. They just happen to be Muslims who live in the area, in need of a mosque. Having them either move or give up on their faith, so as to not disrespect you, is an unreasonable demand on your part.

Unless of course you have evidence that they are terrorists, or support terrorism. In which case please mention that evidence, so I can change my mind.

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In this particular instance, I am in 100% agreement with Jake. And that is not something that happens often. I oppose all forms of irrationality, but I am not going to be any more incensed about a mosque near Ground Zero than I would be about a Shinto temple near Pearl Harbor or a Catholic church near a counseling center for sexual abuse victims.

Islam, like all revealed religions (including Christianity and Judaism), contains many contradictions that are impossible to reconcile and, as such, there is no interpretation of it that a rational outsider should consider the "true" version. The version of Islam preached by bin Laden is not "true" Islam, nor is the peaceful version typically adhered to by American Muslims. Instead, each interpretation is just another version of the same religion.

In fact, the history of religion demonstrates that they evolve in some ways like life-forms do. As in, we are the ones who draw the lines that divide them, in the same way we are the ones who decide where one species ends and another begins. Such distinctions do not exist in nature. Islam grew organically out of a mixture of Abrahamic monotheism and the polytheistic religions of 6th century Arabia. So if we're calling Christianity and Islam different religions, we might as well call bin Laden's Islam a different religion from Islam as it is typically practiced in this country. Since one wants to kill us and another does not, I see no reason to blame the latter for the former's crimes or to lump them into the same category.

All versions of Islam (indeed all religions...in fact, all forms of irrationality) are bullshit and harmful to human happiness. But the people building this mosque have committed no crime against you. Be incensed about the irrationality of any religion. But, unless you're going to be equally incensed about a palm-reading parlor next door to your favorite restaurant (like the one I see every day), then quit yer bitchin'.

Edited by The Wrath
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So what do you suggest to be done? For these people to be forced to move the Mosque elsewhere? This is what I am getting at here. Christianity has caused just as much blood to be spilled due to their religion, no one is going to rant and rave if we put a church up near an abortion clinic that was blown up.

I am arguing for objective criticism of the Muslim population (i.e. not through wide brush stereotypes but by individual merit of each of them), nothing more nothing less. It may be "in bad taste" but thats as far as this goes. We can't do anything about it, nor should anything be done about it. Yes people can criticize it, and they have every right to, but I don't see the point in this case frankly. Its almost like there is this new for of McCarthyism starting to sprout in America.

You couldn't be more wrong. If an abortion clinic were blown up, I'd do my best to keep a church away from it. I wouldn't make it illegal, but I would do SOMETHING!

That being said, I don't think the people who own the Mosque should be FORCED to move. I do believe we should make them as uncomfortable as we can through non force initiating means. It's completely rational to hold a protest against such people, so long as nobody in the protest uses force.

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You couldn't be more wrong. If an abortion clinic were blown up, I'd do my best to keep a church away from it. I wouldn't make it illegal, but I would do SOMETHING!

There are churches near bombed abortion clinics, as well as close to the federal building in Oklahoma City (in fact a quick google maps search reveals 5 or 6 churches, within a couple of blocks). Name one step that you took to prevent the existence of a single one, or at least one objection you made to its existence.

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I personally wouldn't go out of my way to drive to do any sort of protest unless it was near enough to my house that it took minimal effort to get to. Driving around to places and holding up signs isn't the only way to oppose something. Pulling up an isolated concrete like that is pointless.

I oppose the Muslim mosque so strongly because Islam is Islam. Moderate Muslims are only good people for being moderate. The less seriously they take their religion, the better people they are. Most Muslims living in America today have departed from their religion at least partially and accepted Western values such as reason, rights, and the separation of church and state. You could say that the Muslims who took down the twin towers were radicals, but it would be more accurate to say that they were Islamic fundamentalists. They took their religion seriously and it inspired them to do what they did. This goes for Christianity as well. Christianity today is watered down. But don't forget all of the trouble the Christian fundamentalists are causing, and don't forget that Christianity in its purer form is responsible for the Crusades and the Dark Ages.

Religions, in their undiluted forms, taken seriously by their followers, become oppressive and destructive. When you identify this, you can place the blame where it rightfully belongs.

Islam, in its undiluted form, taken seriously by its followers, is responsible for terrorism and oppression originating from the Middle-East, amongst other things.

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