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IDF Raids Free Gaza Movement Aid Flotilla

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CapitalistSwine

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The MSM and other anti-Israeli groups are, to no ones surprise, having a media frenzy over this, stating that the IDF started killing FG members on the flotilla without real provocation.

Perfect example of the BS being propagated here:

Headline: Israeli IDF soldiers were attacked by members of the Free Gaza Movement today when IDF troops attempted to reroute the aid flotilla headed towards Palestine, a terrorist state, the flotilla Mavi Marmara, which was violating the Egypt-Israel blockade and refused to turn back after several warnings. The IDF troops boarded via helicopter in hopes of reaching the deck to order the Captain to turn around. They were equipped with paintball rifles (paintballs) and pistols (w/ real ammo for backup). As they rappelled down they were taken off-guard and attacked with metal poles, chairs,, a firebomb, stun grenade, many passengers were equipped with slingshots and glass marbles, and one FGM member managed to arrest a weapon (pb gun) and use it on soldiers.

Several troops jumped overboard for protection, 1 was thrown overboard, 2 IDF were badly injured, and after almost 5 were at risk of being killed they decided to take out their pistols and opened fire killing 10 FGM members. This was one of several flotillas that was boarded and the only one that resisted.

This is the TRUE story, the one not gaining massive media attention. Israel's IDF is not to blame for this incident.

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said that after a security check, permitted humanitarian aid confiscated from the boats will be transferred to Gaza through authorized channels. However, Israel would not transfer items it has banned from Gaza under its blockade rules. Palmor said that for example, cement would be allowed only if it is tied to a specific project. This is to limit the possibility of Hamas getting this aid, as opposed to the actual civilian population.

Israel and Egypt imposed the blockade on Gaza after Hamas militants violently seized control of the seaside territory in June 2007

The al-Jazeera news satellite channel reported that the ships changed course to try to avoid a nighttime confrontation, preferring a daylight showdown for better publicity.

Video from above:

Video from on-board:

More details from the IDF:

http://idfspokesperson.com/2010/05/31/clos...rs-31-may-2010/

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Won't let me edit my original post so:

The AtlasShrugs2000 blog contains a video with footage from the Mavi Marmara including injured Soldiers, items used as weapons that were found on board, and medical treatment of passengers.

Blog Post:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_s...rnalism--2.html

Direct video clip link:

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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As an Israeli I am outraged with the fact that our soldiers were sent there severely handicapped, with restricting no-fire orders (as are common in IDF) resulting in a terrible tragey and what could've spelled death of many Israeli soldiers. It was clear that these ships were no 'humanitarian aid' nor a 'peace mission', since Israel has offered weeks ago to deliver all such humanitarian aid passed to it for Gaza. This should've been dealt with without endangering Israeli soldiers lives unnecessarily. What should of happened is that once the ships entered Israeli territory and after fair warnings, all ships which would refused to turn back should've been sank, or at the very least captured with rifles wielding troops.

Furthermore, I am shocked that Turkey had the nerve to send such a mission of armed civilians to Israel, with full intent for the actions to unfold the way they did, and am pointing an accusing finger towards the Turkish government.

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As an Israeli I am outraged with the fact that our soldiers were sent there severely handicapped, with restricting no-fire orders (as are common in IDF) resulting in a terrible tragey and what could've spelled death of many Israeli soldiers.

this, yes

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The words "raid" and "attack" all the media I've seen are utilizing, are at least a misnomer, at worst, incendiary.

The blockade on Gaza is up for a good reason - is there any doubt on this?

If an intruder tries to force open a locked gate protected by a watchman, and when being arrested and searched, then pulls a knife on him, is the watchman justified in shooting him?

Not, apparently, when the watchman is Israeli, defending his nation.

The media, and every other cynical, irrational group and State, will try to spin a heroic fairy tale out of this terrible incident.

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Well if this level of incompetence can be expected of the IDF maybe they had a reason to suspect Israel's aid delivery services.

Could you clarify what you mean by incompetence on the part of IDF??

Frankly, I really wish the IDF would have at least waited until they had entered into their territorial waters, I don't really see why they had to board in international waters. It really does not help their case because its officially "piracy" by international standards (since the international organizations like to remove all context) and makes the situation look more iffy to those inclined to be biased against Israel to begin with.

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Well not quite. This happened outside of anyones territorial waters as they were 75 miles from shore, on a ship whose flag state is Turkey. This has at least two legal implications: either this was an act of war against Turkey, or an act of murder under Turkish law.

I'm fine with the argument that these ships were intending to break through the blockade, and therefore Israel is justified in stopping them, but they screwed this one up. Calling this an attack or raid do accurately describe what happened here.

Could you clarify what you mean by incompetence on the part of IDF??

Well for those strategic reasons above but for tactical ones as well. Taking a line out of a helicopter to board a vessel is pretty dangerous without any outside thread of violence. To do it at night with no security making sure they get down safe, with basically riot gear is just idiocy. In this particular case I do not think Israel meant to commit a hostile act, but it is an aggressive one and they mistakenly judged a ship full of nutjobs could tell the difference.

Edited by Manpanionship
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I am just trying to picture what the reaction would be, if say a local Tea Party Patriots group had declared its intent to march into the Federal Reserve headquarters and once and for all put an end to its destruction of our lives and livelihood, after which the Secret Service orders them not to, but if they want to use a ballot box to do it, that might be okay. But said right wing activists say no to that, and instead march inside the building and when stopped by police, begin to assault them with metal pipes and stab them with knives. Yeah, I'm thinking they wouldn't exactly be branded as heroes standing up for the cause of justice and righteousness.

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But said right wing activists say no to that, and instead march inside the building and when stopped by police, begin to assault them with metal pipes and stab them with knives.

that sounds nothing like the tea party movement. lame hypothetical

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that sounds nothing like the tea party movement. lame hypothetical

You completely missed the point he was trying to make. He is suggesting how there is a ridiculous bias by the Left in general regarding Palestine.

At any rate, I found something interesting as I was browsing Reddit comments about this event (unfortunately, both digg and reddit are swimming with biased liberals so anything useful takes a little sifting)

I haven't had time to look into the rest of this suggestion so I am curious if someone is more familiar with it?

Regarding the legality of the international waters aspect:

Israeli soldiers invaded these ships in international waters, breaking international law. Now, for the most part my general statement to that is I don't give two shits about international law, and these international bodies I would prefer to be dissolved as they are international centers of corruption and beuracracy and have, in my view, created more problems than they have solved, and that the self-interest of a country (Israel in this case) within reason, should trump international law. I suggest that this is the case, somewhat, since it was quite obvious where this ship was going

I'd love to clarify this, but I can't, not fully. This illegal waters thing was my initial reaction too, but it's more complicated than that. I read the statutes on piracy (originally I thought that the Israelis were guilty of piracy but from my limited research so far it appears they are not).

From here:

San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea, 12 June 1994

http://www.icrc.org/IHL.nsf/FULL/560?OpenDocument

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States [such a Turkey in this case] may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;

These flotilla were going to break the blockade ... they had done it 5 times before without the Israelis interfering ... I've seen the videos, they are horrifying, but the "international waters" argument is not standing up. Though it's so completely complicated that I don't see how anyone could make a definitive interpretation of the various aspects of these laws and the terms used within them.

The problem here is that...this document is applicaple to 'armed conflicts'. However Israel insists they disengaged in 2005 of which case they might be shooting themselves in the foot here.

"Well not quite. This happened outside of anyones territorial waters as they were 75 miles from shore, on a ship whose flag state is Turkey. This has at least two legal implications: either this was an act of war against Turkey, or an act of murder under Turkish law."

I don't really see how either of these follow from what happened unless A) Turkey wants to be silly about this B) Since the soldiers obviously acted in self-defense. Does Turkish law not count self-defense?? Frankly, I don't understand why Turkey let this ship head over there, when Israel was willing to transfer any aid to Gaza for them anyways, avoiding this entire situation.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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So if they do this at 75 miles, it's evil and unjust terrorism, but if they do the same thing at 68 miles, it's okay. Not exactly a good argument. Like you, I don't give a good god damn about "international waters" or for that matter the poor Israeli minister's comment about "national sovereignty." Either the action was defensive or aggressive, which means, either the blockade is moral or immoral. I am no expert on Israel-Palestine but it seems to me the blockade is really a bad policy. They should just take Gaza, throw out Hamas, and administer law and order themselves, including inspecting ships that come in if necessary.

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I think it is even more clear now that this was a pre-planned aggressive action. I think it was already obvious from the videos but they now have a video showing all of the weapons on board. They had a freakin' weapons cache!

See here:

weaponsmarmara1.jpg

Video of ALL the weapons, including the firebomb that was used (stun grenade blew up in the air above the water it seems like)

Of course the Pro-Hamas people will suggest this is "IDF propaganda".

What I don't understand is why they did not disable the propellor and just tow the ship, like the usually do, instead of boarding. Perhaps our Israeli friends on here can give us some clarification on this?

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I think it is even more clear now that this was a pre-planned aggressive action. I think it was already obvious from the videos but they now have a video showing all of the weapons on board. They had a freakin' weapons cache!

See here:

weaponsmarmara1.jpg

Video of ALL the weapons, including the firebomb that was used (stun grenade blew up in the air above the water it seems like)

Of course the Pro-Hamas people will suggest this is "IDF propaganda".

What I don't understand is why they did not disable the propellor and just tow the ship, like the usually do, instead of boarding. Perhaps our Israeli friends on here can give us some clarification on this?

I was going to reply to your other post but it looks like they are getting down to some of those details now anyways.

I am looking at this weapons cache and I have to ask, on a 100m length ship capable of carrying 1000+ passengers, how do we know most of that isn't simply knives from the kitchen and just the tools you need to maintain the ship? With as many people as there were on the boat that really looks like a weak weapons cache.

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I was going to reply to your other post but it looks like they are getting down to some of those details now anyways.

I am looking at this weapons cache and I have to ask, on a 100m length ship capable of carrying 1000+ passengers, how do we know most of that isn't simply knives from the kitchen and just the tools you need to maintain the ship? With as many people as there were on the boat that really looks like a weak weapons cache.

How many meat butchers did this majority group of Muslims need for this little jaunty at sea? Or did they plan on using those particular knives to cut cake and biscuits? Perhaps those curved daggers pictured are the new "Kafir-3000" model from Mecca Cutlery Ltd.

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Well, I think about what I would do in that situation. Certainly they were trying to get as closely as they could to that line that would've really put this thing into a real battle. So I'd leave behind the AK's and make sure every mundane tool or object would simultaneously act as a decent weapon wherever possible. They wanted some conflict after all and there's plenty of stupidity on both sides.

Edited by Manpanionship
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Is it really possible for Palestine to do much with knives anyway? I mean, really.

But still, the IDF was in the right to act according to the Blockade.

EDIT: Pardon me. I forgot to acknowledge the other weapons, such as firebombs.

I've actually been arguing about it with someone, and they say that IDF completley controls the narrative. You're only seeing the footage they want you to say, and it took them a whole day to release the footage.

Edited by Black Wolf
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Also "funny" to note that when South Korea claims a North Korean submarine sunk its cruiser and killed 46 of its sailors, while threatening "total war" and nuclear annihilation of the South, we hear not a word from the "peace" crowd. (Why, it's even a Zionist plot to start WW3!) But when Israel uses paintball guns to try to stop a ship full of hippies in order to prevent their enemies Hamas from the possibility of receiving arms, Western Europe, Turkey, China, India, South America, the UN, and almost the US immediately jump on them. "Disproportionate force." Undoubtedly, we will be "deserving" of terrorist attacks because we didn't condemn them outright.

Edited by 2046
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I've actually been arguing about it with someone, and they say that IDF completley controls the narrative. You're only seeing the footage they want you to say, and it took them a whole day to release the footage.

Is that why the 2 most detailed videos out so far came out the day OF?

The best the Palestinians have is an Al-Jazeera reporter that was ON THE BOAT (which can be assumed is equally as biased as the IDF if you are not intellectually dishonest) where the best we get is some sounds of distant light gunfire on the other side of the ship. There is no way to tell what is going on or get anything intelligible out of it other than that there was a conflict. It is quite obvious from the video shown that the IDF were being attacked before they could even land one person on the ship. It is also quite obvious metal poles, chairs, and a firebomb (see how people disperse very quickly at the "fake" landing position of the firebomb?) and a stun grenade which was obviously used since you can see it explode in the air. It was without a doubt a pre-planned action to provoke, they knew that they were going somewhere they would not be allowed to go, and they ignored multiple warnings. The only things up in the air here are the very specifics of how things went down in regards to the firefight, why Israel boarded it instead of disabling it, why these people did not just give the aide to the Israeli's since they said they would channel all aid that wasn't considered contraband (for good reason) to Gaza, and how iffy the international waters thing is. (you can see my statements on the international waters thing though). The most controversial part of this whole thing is pretty damn crystal clear right now from evidence provided that was obviously not faked. They didn't show the rest of the footage but they showed the most critical part of it. Israel fucked up. The people on the ship fucked up. And the people on the ship were planning to attack these guys beforehand because they had readymade implosive devices, started attacking them before they could set foot on the ship, and readied large metal poles among other things far too quickly for it to have been an "in the moment" defensive action, of which there was no need for, as everyone oown that ship I am sure was aware since historical precedence clearly shows when they board a flotilla they aren't boarding it to gun everyone down in a sea of blood.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Is it really possible for Palestine to do much with knives anyway? I mean, really.

But still, the IDF was in the right to act according to the Blockade.

EDIT: Pardon me. I forgot to acknowledge the other weapons, such as firebombs.

I've actually been arguing about it with someone, and they say that IDF completley controls the narrative. You're only seeing the footage they want you to say, and it took them a whole day to release the footage.

Black Wolf, you are missing the main point:- that from the start, the entire exercise was a 'made for Prime Time,' Public Relations doccie, produced by those fine folks of the FGM.

Think Greenpeace taking on whaling ships - drama at sea, good littl'uns against nasty big'uns. It worked for them.

I am certain there's footage from onboard cameramen not shown yet. But it was critical that the ship contained no serious weaponry, to compromise the worthiness of their cause.

They must have known they'd be boarded; they obviously wanted confrontation though I doubt anyone was looking for martyrdom on this occasion, but trouble is, they overdid it for the cameras, the Israelis were too easy-going at first, and then over-reacted. And so on. At least, that's my read on it.

The Islamist propaganda machine has been rolling along for decades, and it's disappointing that people still suck it up.

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How many meat butchers did this majority group of Muslims need for this little jaunty at sea? Or did they plan on using those particular knives to cut cake and biscuits? Perhaps those curved daggers pictured are the new "Kafir-3000" model from Mecca Cutlery Ltd.

I've been a professional chef/cook almost my whole life and those are most definitely common kitchen knives, and not in a quantity that would be unreasonable for 5-8 cooks to have. I myself have 20 in my knife roll and most cooks I know average 12.

That said, I am on the side of Israel in this matter.

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