IDF Raids Free Gaza Movement Aid Flotilla

[TheEgoist]

The people condemning Israel this time have really made themselves like asses.

[CapitalistSwine]

I doubt anyone was looking for martyrdom on this occasion

I disagree:

Video contains people onboard the ship chanting, one woman mentions martyrdom at the end of the video...

"Right now we face one of two possible happy endings, martyrdom or reaching Gaza."

Also, I don't understand why everyone is commenting on the knives. There was more than just knives on there. Did anyone bother to watch the video I linked right below the picture that shows the rest of the weapons (by weapons I mean objects they intended, and did, use as weapons) they had?

Update on why they boarded instead of disabling the ship: Apparently, according to CNN, the ship was too large to disable in that fashion and tow.

Edited June 2, 2010 by CapitalistSwine

[2046]

I disagree:

Video contains people onboard the ship chanting, one woman mentions martyrdom at the end of the video...

That is true, as I have read countless twitter postings and comments "If Israel does the same thing to this next flotilla, I will be on the next one, God willing, I wil be a martyr too." This is really a "freedom or death" issue for them, "freedom" meaning all evil Jews out of sacred Arab racial land and the destruction of a semi-free civilized nation for that of a national socialist Muslim theocracy, of course.

[The Wrath]

Though I am firmly on Israel's side on this, particularly having seen the video, I fear that their actions just played into the hands of their enemies. Their enemies wanted some soundbytes to play for an international audience, and got it. As a result, Israel is in danger of losing diplomatic relations with Turkey, which was once a close ally. Surley they saw this coming.

Seems like a smarter move would have been to set up a counter-blockade with its own ships. It's not as if the "humanitarian" ships would have gotten past it.

[CapitalistSwine]

New compilation video out that has footage I have not yet seen.

This video contains clips from ON the deck, a few people's distance away from any of the troops at any one time, and it clearly shows:

1. Them being wailed on with metal poles right when they land (we know this already)

2. An IDF commando back against one of the railings with a paintball gun trying to defend himself.

3. An IDF Commando beginning to retreat up a stairwell when he gets hit with a metal pole and then it is CLEARLY shown that he was stabbed REPEATEDLY, in the back and then the chest by a knife and the IDF soldier did NOT respond.

The video goes on to clarify that 90% of the the passengers were peaceful, the 10% got out of control and began this, pre-planned. They arrested 2 weapons from the commandos (according to their reports) which, although they are commandos, it can be easily seen how this was possible from the video below, and shot one soldier in the knee and another in the stomach. At this point it escalated to where they were forced to take out their weapons, the firefight that ensued killed the other passengers caught in the crossfire.

The video: Censored Footage from the Gaza Flotilla - How Violence Breaks Out

Also I think you are correct that this played into everyon elses hands.

Especially Turkey's.

Check out this article, I found it quite illuminating:

The Problem is Turkey not Israel:

http://prophecyforum.blogspot.com/2010/06/...not-israel.html

Also here is the Prime Minister of Israel speaking about the conflict, I think he could not have addressed this better:

Edited June 3, 2010 by CapitalistSwine

[TeaPartier]

Here is an excellent article by Charles Krauthammer

Those troublesome Jews

[CapitalistSwine]

Even Vice President Biden gets it:

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/201..._deal_here.html

Humanitarian crisis in Gaza? Where? Fascinating recent 17-page travel journal from American woman who spent 9 days amongst the residents of Gaza. Despite obvious anti-Israel bias, her many photos (and text) don't show anything close to extreme hardship. In fact, Gaza looks affluent and comfortable, especially the visit to the Roots Resort.

http://www.travelpod.com/travel-blog-entri...64355/tpod.html

Apparently the flotillas were in part funded by an EXTREMIST organization that has ties with Hamas:

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_mul.../hamas_e108.htm

In-depth info on IHH (the organization)

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_mul.../hamas_e105.htm

http://www.terrorism-info.org.il/malam_mul.../hamas_e104.htm

[2046]

Helen Thomas says the Jews should "get the hell out of Palestine." It's not their land, it belongs to the Arab race.

[Manpanionship]

Yeah a lot of this seems like it's bordering on sycophancy at this point. An Israeli terrorism website that looks like it was made for Geocities circa 1999 is a source of credible information?

[CapitalistSwine]

Yeah a lot of this seems like it's bordering on sycophancy at this point. An Israeli terrorism website that looks like it was made for Geocities circa 1999 is a source of credible information?

Because the sites aesthetics are more important than the content? This same information can be found on numerous other sites. Even ignoring this information you can know there were links to Hamas regarding the passengers from newly released videos.

Edited June 6, 2010 by CapitalistSwine

[CapitalistSwine]

Turkish PM to escort aid ship to Gaza guarded by the Navy

Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan is said to be considering sailing to the GAZA strip with an aid flotilla backed by Turkish Navy ships, international news media reported.

http://digg.com/world_news/Turkish_PM_to_e...ded_by_the_Navy

Edited June 6, 2010 by CapitalistSwine

[Black Wolf]

So how do you guys feel about he argument that the Israelis are not at war with Hamas?

[rebelconservative]

So how do you guys feel about he argument that the Israelis are not at war with Hamas?

it is not an argument, it is an idiotic suggestion. The fact that Israel stupidly forcibly uprooted Jewish communities and removed soldiers from Gaza does not mean they are not still at war with Hamas. They have retreated, but they remain at war. This is aside from the Hamas charter demanding Israel's destruction, the rockets raining down on civilians in Sderot and the continued holding of Gilad Shalit.

Almost as stupid as my dad's suggestion that the Israelis were not acting in self-defence as they could have just shot their attackers in the leg rather than the face... this with his extensive knowledge and experience of warfare and military training (I jest of course)

[rebelconservative]

Had the goal been aid delivery, they'd have sailed into Ashdod and taken it by road - or tried to go via the Egyptian border. Their goal was to embarass Israel, delivering a PR blow, the hippies didn't fight back, the turkish islamist were clearly happy and ready to martyr themselves. You don't need 600 people including children, to deliver aid.

[Manpanionship]

Because the sites aesthetics are more important than the content? This same information can be found on numerous other sites. Even ignoring this information you can know there were links to Hamas regarding the passengers from newly released videos.

Yes there's still no way to call this information credible. Apparently ~10+ years of dubious terrorism 'intel' and terrible foreign policy decisions made by our own government have failed to instill any skepticism in you. This board is at the level of foxnews.com mouthbreather message boards.

[Maximus]

This board is at the level of foxnews.com mouthbreather message boards.

Then go away.

[rebelconservative]

Yes there's still no way to call this information credible.

Despite the fact that the flotilla was organised by the IHH? The IHH, is a terror group affiliated with Hamas, it owns and operates three of the ships involved in the convoy - including the one where the deaths occured.

[CapitalistSwine]

Yes there's still no way to call this information credible. Apparently ~10+ years of dubious terrorism 'intel' and terrible foreign policy decisions made by our own government have failed to instill any skepticism in you. This board is at the level of foxnews.com mouthbreather message boards.

I am well aware of the foreign policy decisions made by our government, I realize we are very much so an imperailist-type nation and have been fore quite some time (South America for instance). That has nothing to do with this conflict. Again, are you just going to throw insults or are you going to defend whatever your position is with evidence? This isn't the 4chan forums where you can spout your mouth off like a whiny little kid.

So I can find this information on several other sites merely by using google, including reputable sources like CSM, multiple middle-eastern news sites, about 15 other sites, Russia Today, and MSNBC within a 1 minute search around and it is not credible? It is up to you to prove your statement that this information is incorrect, not me. I think you are inherently biased on this subject (the first post in here you made about the knives was silly and was easily rejected by anyone that has been paying attention to the news on this event) and you are not contributing anything useful to this thread, just insults. If you disagree with all of the things said in here, prove they are wrong. You are currently breaking forum rule #4 and it can be relatively easily debated you are breaking rule #5, so I suggest you straighten up and realize this is not appropriate behavior here. I find your reference to this being the likes of a fox news forum to be rather insulting.

Otherwise.

GET

OUT!

Edited June 6, 2010 by CapitalistSwine

[Black Wolf]

Oh. Now this is something.

[2046]

Oh. Now this is something.

That may be a fake though. Check out this one:

Edit: Found this as an unedited version of the exchange:

Edited June 7, 2010 by 2046

[rebelconservative]

I am getting increasingly frustrated the coverage of this issue. I have a great interest in Israel, but am unable to watch anything without getting incredibly angry at the coverage of it in the UK. The TV is perhaps the worst, the BBC is bad enough but I forced myself to watch C4 news (think the Guardian or the NYT on TV) and was enraged at the clear partisanship of the presenter. There was absolutely no attempt to be fair, balanced, objectiveor unbiased. Arab/hippie propaganda is dealt with as sacrosanct fact, all information from the IDF is treated as though it were somehow tainted, biased assertions with a clear indication that no moral person could possibly accept it. Some Turkish guy was interviewed, saying that the IDF were shooting live rounds from the helicopter, this was treated uncritically, despite the lack of proof.

All talk is of the Israeli blockade, the fact that the Egyptian border is also closed is never mentioned, or when it is, it is an afterthought, as though there is the Israeli blockade... oh and btw, Egypt have their border closed too, meaning Israel's blockade is even harder on the arab civilians. You just could not make it up.

This idiotic liberal even had the nerve to determine what is in Israel's national security interest, stating as 'fact', that the existence of the smuggling tunnels is proof that the blockade is not working and therefore it would Israel would be better to open the borders and inspect goods delivered. Indeed, she argues that the Israeli blockade benefits Hamas because the smugglers pay them tax. That may or may not be a valid view, but it is certainly not within the remit of her job as a journalist.

Whilst some balancing facts are being aired, such as the video of the attack, the images are on screen for a few seconds (it is difficult to ascertain what is going on in such a chaotic situation) and the 'reporter' immediately indicates that the objective facts demonstrated actually prove nothing, that the soldiers were attacked in self-defence and the soldiers were firing on the ship from helicopters, this is all allowed to pass unquestioned.

The appeal to emotion is constant throughout, getting quite ridiculous with pictures of kids playing "... just in sand..." *wipes tear from eye*

Maybe I am over-reacting, I don't know. The debate is so polarised. You can see it here, there were two brief pieces, around four minutes each. http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/poli...+israel/3671232

the bias of the so-called journalist is disgraceful http://www.channel4.com/news/articles/poli...riander/3671227

I just watched it back, I am still struck by the bias and one-sided view of the issue, it is nothing more than a pro-Arab advocacy piece.

[whYNOT]

rebel,

I share your frustration; I've always been suspicious of conspiracy theories, but there seems to be an element of pre-planning in this flotilla business, and I'm afraid that Israel has played into their enemies' hands.

We have seen the pattern too many times in 40 years.

Arab nations, or fundamentalist gangs pave the way for the next attacks by softening up public opinion via the media. This provides them with foreknowledge about who's lacking conviction (Obama, in this case), and gains them justification and sympathy, after the attack has occured.

I also feel sick at how willingly western liberals (and even rational people who should know better), swallow the spin - doctored rubbish.

[Black Wolf]

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/ra...3ZpZGVvd2hpdA--

Hahaha what a bitch

[rebelconservative]

rebel,

I share your frustration; I've always been suspicious of conspiracy theories, but there seems to be an element of pre-planning in this flotilla business, and I'm afraid that Israel has played into their enemies' hands.

We have seen the pattern too many times in 40 years.

Arab nations, or fundamentalist gangs pave the way for the next attacks by softening up public opinion via the media. This provides them with foreknowledge about who's lacking conviction (Obama, in this case), and gains them justification and sympathy, after the attack has occured.

I also feel sick at how willingly western liberals (and even rational people who should know better), swallow the spin - doctored rubbish.

indeed, they are very skilled at media relations, often staging events, photos, video to dupe Western viewers.

of course, sensationalist journalists looking to exploit the sentimentality of western audiences get in on the act, as in the 2006 war in Lebanon with many staged scenes as well as doctored photos.

liberals swallow it because it is what they want to hear, it conforms to their pre-conceived narrative - evil Jews, oppressing poor downtrodden innocent peace-loving arabs.

[CapitalistSwine]

As was pointed out earlier by another poster, who put up the real recording, Israel has acknowledged they edited the Gaza audio recording between Israel and the flotilla. However, this doesn't change what we saw in those videos, something that cannot be edited.

Gaza convoy tapes edited, Israel acknowledges:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/meast/06/06/...ld+(RSS:+World)

I am not surprised that Israel has propagandized this to some extent, but that doesn't change the essential facts of this event.