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Youth and (lack of) sex

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I think there is something to be said for having sex just for the sake of having sex. When I hit 21 or 22 I was still a virgin, so I decided to look into online escorts because I was having trouble finding anyone I wanted to start a relationship with. I figured that if I did meet someone, I didn't want to be all awkward and have no idea what I was doing at that age. I think a 22-year-old that doesn't have a clue what they are doing would be a turnoff to most prospective mates the same age. I ended up having a few encounters with different escorts. The first time was awful, but it got better. I satisfied my curiosity fairly quickly and felt like I was learning how to please a woman from professionals, which is the way I went about it.

I didn't actually have a relationship until years later, but I felt like my earlier experimentation had prepared me for it. I don't regret it in the slightest, as I think it has made me a better lover.

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This would be the base of all disagreements between Objectivists about sex. You're just making an assertion here. Since you haven't yet had any sex yourself, I'm not sure how you're drawing this sweep

Of course you will be disappointed if you are looking for more out of the experience than is to be expected. A person who you are having sex with is still a person, who you will connect with (or n

What is it that makes it nice, though? I guess I'm not helping the OP here, but I never understood this. I can see the merits of both extremes, but what are you getting in the middle? I can (sort of) relate to having sex with whomever you find hot, I can certainly relate to having sex with the one woman you love the most, but I could never do this "you're good for now, but it isn't forever" thing.

I mean, the two values you can derive from sleeping with a woman are 1, having a great sexual experience and 2, consummating a romantic relationship. If you are focusing on #1, the way to gain the greatest amount of value is to sleep with as many attractive women as you find. If you are going for #2 (which comes with #1 included, of course), then it has to be a real romantic relationship, with a woman you're in love with, not just some temporary "like you but don't quite really love you" kind of arrangement.

What is it that makes it nice ... well, that will be different with each person. Peopel react differently. For some, sex before "the one" works, for others not. This is a decision that has to be made on a personal level; it's not one size fits all.

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What is it that makes it nice ... well, that will be different with each person. Peopel react differently. For some, sex before "the one" works, for others not. This is a decision that has to be made on a personal level; it's not one size fits all.
is

What I mean by the above is, for example, I thoroughly enjoy sex. It's a tremendous pleasure. I like men who feel comfortable with themselves and sex and are not uptight. But that's me. It isn't for everyone. Each person needs to go with his or her comfort level.

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I think a 22-year-old that doesn't have a clue what they are doing would be a turnoff to most prospective mates the same age.

I'm 22. I think anybody who would be that irritated and impatient with a mate about being who they're learning with is a bad sign for the relationship, for how much they actually care about you as a person.

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Not treating sex casually does not translate to being uptight about sex.

Seconded. Why shouldn't you be careful about something that is of a high value to you? I think this is an unfair dichotomy. I personally would be turned off by an "easy" guy. Who wants to be someone's fiftieth notch on the bedpost? Not me.

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Yes, Howard, that was a generalization, but a pretty accurate one, based on experience. People who are comfortable with their sexuality are usually able to maintain a good relationship and don't need to prove anything by sleeping around. I've never seen unrestrained promiscuity as a sign of self-esteem. Of course, people who can't handle their sexuality and abstain usually (yes, a generalization) have the same problem.

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Most girls your age are dumb and just want good sex and to be entertained constantly with BS. Girls will always want good sex, so I suggest you learn to have sex so when you meet one that is not dumb you will not be laughed at when you are all done in one minute. Do not put these girls on some intellectual pedestal. Most of them like to be treated like crap, which just shows their true colors even more. Don't be afraid of them, they are dumber than you. If you have any testosterone in your body and do not look like a gremlin, some woman should be drawn to you. I don't care if you have to start out with fat chicks - most everyone did and you have to start somewhere. I am not a guy who subscribes to lowering standards for no reason, but I would recommend lowering your standards to eventually increase them.

Edited by MoralParadise
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Most girls your age are dumb and just want good sex and to be entertained constantly with BS. Girls will always want good sex, so I suggest you learn to have sex so when you meet one that is not dumb you will not be laughed at when you are all done in one minute. Do not put these girls on some intellectual pedestal. Most of them like to be treated like crap, which just shows their true colors even more. Don't be afraid of them, they are dumber than you. If you have any testosterone in your body and do not look like a gremlin, some woman should be drawn to you. I don't care if you have to start out with fat chicks - most everyone did and you have to start somewhere. I am not a guy who subscribes to lowering standards for no reason, but I would recommend lowering your standards to eventually increase them.

This is the most offensive post I've read on these forums in a long time.

Let me see if I've got this straight. Women are just dumb bitches who want to be treated like shit and will jump any guy with body hair? Oh and don't forget, bone fat chicks first for an easy practice lay?

There's something seriously warped with your view of sexuality and females if you subscribe to this garbage.

Edited by Myself
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The only real advice I can come up with on this, is : don't go looking for it.

Sounds crazy, but there's sense in it.

Secondly, don't generalize, about yourself as a sexual being, or about the girl you wish for. Or anything. This is an incredibly individual arena.

It's easy to say, harder to do in one's 20's (I know), but as much as possible 'be' who you are, and don't try too hard.

(Sex for a single man, is a bit like luck - you prepare yourself for it to make sure you enjoy it to full advantage when it strikes - but you cannot count on its timing. So don't knock yourself when you're not having it.)

No, I'm not keen on the 'learn to be friends with a woman, interesting guy thing'. You're not looking for a buddy - you're a man, desiring a mate.

Why not project that? Without, repeat, without, displaying overt machismo, or 'hunting' for her.

Last thought, variety and numbers of lovers do not extend sexual pleasure, IME.

With one great woman, it just keeps getting better...

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Most girls your age are dumb and just want good sex and to be entertained constantly with BS. Girls will always want good sex, so I suggest you learn to have sex so when you meet one that is not dumb you will not be laughed at when you are all done in one minute. Do not put these girls on some intellectual pedestal. Most of them like to be treated like crap, which just shows their true colors even more. Don't be afraid of them, they are dumber than you. If you have any testosterone in your body and do not look like a gremlin, some woman should be drawn to you. I don't care if you have to start out with fat chicks - most everyone did and you have to start somewhere. I am not a guy who subscribes to lowering standards for no reason, but I would recommend lowering your standards to eventually increase them.

Wow, there's a lot of bad advice in this thread. If I understand this post, it boils down to "start having sex with fat chicks so you can get practice and be able to please dumb--but hot--bitches."

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I'm glad you posted MoralParadise. You're an excellent example for women out there of how low some men can sink. There are women who think some of the men in Atlas Shrugged are low; it can be a shock to realize just how low some men are - Ayn Rand couldn't even have imagined someone like you on her worst day.

So, thanks for posting. Certainly educational.

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I disagree. Being a virgin in your 20's is something worth being legitimately concerned about. Seeking sex-in-itself as a goal is mistaken but this is certainly a cause for introspection.

A man should be concerned about finding a woman worthy of having sex with, not having sex in itself. This is the problem I find when most people tell someone they "should've had sex by now." The point is that sex means that there's someone worth having sex with, if said person isn't, then there is no reason for someone to have had sex. I was offering as my advice that the topic poster be more concerned with finding a woman worth having sex with than removing the title "virgin," as said title is meaningless in regards to his greater values.

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Most girls your age are dumb and just want good sex and to be entertained constantly with BS. Girls will always want good sex, so I suggest you learn to have sex so when you meet one that is not dumb you will not be laughed at when you are all done in one minute. Do not put these girls on some intellectual pedestal. Most of them like to be treated like crap, which just shows their true colors even more. Don't be afraid of them, they are dumber than you. If you have any testosterone in your body and do not look like a gremlin, some woman should be drawn to you. I don't care if you have to start out with fat chicks - most everyone did and you have to start somewhere. I am not a guy who subscribes to lowering standards for no reason, but I would recommend lowering your standards to eventually increase them.

I lol'd. I lol'd at the subsequent responses as well.

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A man should be concerned about finding a woman worthy of having sex with, not having sex in itself. This is the problem I find when most people tell someone they "should've had sex by now." The point is that sex means that there's someone worth having sex with, if said person isn't, then there is no reason for someone to have had sex. I was offering as my advice that the topic poster be more concerned with finding a woman worth having sex with than removing the title "virgin," as said title is meaningless in regards to his greater values.

This is the point I sought to illustrate with my own anecdotal story. The important thing isn't "giving it away", it's finding someone who is worthy of both receiving it and giving it back to you. Rather prosaic, but there you have it.

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People who are comfortable with their sexuality are usually able to maintain a good relationship and don't need to prove anything by sleeping around. I've never seen unrestrained promiscuity as a sign of self-esteem.

- What do you mean when you say "comfortable" about their sexuality?

And this general idea that less sex = more confidence is no axiom.

It may be that some seek sexual encounters to validate that they really are the great people they belive to be - and certainly meeting a girl that find you interesting and charming is going to effect your level of confidence (just as if you where constantly rejected at some point it would not help), but there is no reason to think that this is generally the main motivator.

And even if it was to be, I cant see how that would imply anything about them being comfortable about their sexuality, though I am still not certain of your definition of the term.

A man should be concerned about finding a woman worthy of having sex with, not having sex in itself. This is the problem I find when most people tell someone they "should've had sex by now." The point is that sex means that there's someone worth having sex with

- No, sex means simply that - intercourse.

What makes a girl worthy by your standards?

For me it comes down to being cute, interesting and fun to hang around.

if said person isn't, then there is no reason for someone to have had sex.

- Sure there is! Its provides tremendous physical pleasure.

When you go to an gourmet restaurant it does not lead anywhere, and probably isent even healthy for you - but it is enjoyable there and then.

It is a good experience. There is nothing evil in that.

There are many more factors to consider aswell, first of all that if you find sex enjoyable you should seek it in a larger degree while you are still young and in that sense relatively physicaly optimal - otherwise I suspect it may be something you could end up regretting later in life.

Off course not if you end up having your first sexual encounter at 28 and end up happily married - but rather if you should have your first encounter at 28, marry and then get divorced at forty.

There is also the question of experience, I am fairly certain I was quite bad during my first encounter, but these things change drastically with experience.

I fear that if your experience is exclusively with one you would not have aquired the same skills - and when you do meet the women of your dreams, how would she react if you are on the same performance level as her first boyfriend at fourteen?

Edited by Lasse K. Lien
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On the assumption that the OP has trouble moving a "date" into a stage of physical intimacy, I'll contribute these tidbits:

As the "date" goes on, assuming you find her attractive, it is natural for people to start thinking about the other person more and more, so there are pauses in the conversation. During this time, the one listening finds himself enjoying just looking at "her" face as much as listening to the smallish things being talked about, so maintain eye-contact even after she's stopped talking. If she maintains eye-contact also, that can easily lead to shared smiles (your are smiling at one another, and about one another,)and then to a small kiss...

Awkwardness itself can be a signal that both of you are considering the possibility of sex. Don't avoid awkward silences or "fill" them too much. If you think you're attuned, you can deliberately start saying those end-of-date things too soon. That gets you into an "I've enjoyed this" mood while there's still time for things to develop. It's easy to go from, "why don't we go do... this weekend," to "want to get a cup of coffee," or "I feel like listening to music--want to come..." etc. A good night kiss that doesn't take place on the doorstep has opportunity to lead to deeper kisses, the tight embrace (with an involuntary sigh, as if it were torn out of you, :o ..) You would have planned ahead where to go if things heat up, so look her in the eyes and say something like, "We could go... or "I'd really like to continue this..."

If all goes according to plan, be sure to engage in foreplay. :o Being desired is very alluring, so feel free to reveal your wanting her, hold her arm, take her hand. Men lead, so don't wait for her to signal some permission or encouragement. (I'm sure your sense of brakes is well-honed.)

Remember that sex is a celebration. You feel sexy when you feel good about yourself. Shared sexuality comes when the things you wish to celebrate about yourself are the same as you see in her, and that she celebrates in herself... so identify the ways you both evaluate and approve of yourselves...

The reason for "casual" sex is that celebration. If you don't feel anything like that, I suggest you give it a pass.

Are we to hear what comes to pass??

-- Mindy

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Its provides tremendous physical pleasure.

When you go to an gourmet restaurant it does not lead anywhere, and probably isent even healthy for you - but it is enjoyable there and then.

It is a good experience. There is nothing evil in that.

Objectivism is not an hedonistic philosophy. Just because it provides physical pleasure does not mean that you should do it without regard for other values. To use your analogy, having casual sex is like eating frequently at a fast-food joint, gives fleeting pleasure but it against your rational self-interest. Sex can not properly not be seperated from love and your highest values. Having sex with someone your love and value is, to use your analogy again, like eating in a gourmet restaurant.

I am twenty-seven and still a virgin, it is not the end of the world.

I fear that if your experience is exclusively with one you would not have aquired the same skills - and when you do meet the women of your dreams, how would she react if you are on the same performance level as her first boyfriend at fourteen?

I would not be with anyone who would reject me for lack of sexual experience.

Anyway, if you are on such a low performance level then she should help you make up for lost time ;)

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Sex can not properly not be seperated from love and your highest values. Having sex with someone your love and value is, to use your analogy again, like eating in a gourmet restaurant.

This would be the base of all disagreements between Objectivists about sex. You're just making an assertion here. Since you haven't yet had any sex yourself, I'm not sure how you're drawing this sweeping conclusion.

I have noticed that the loudest mouths on the "sex only with One-And-Only/Lifelong-Spouse/Single-Lover" side of the sex debates are those who have not even tried the other side! Those who live the other side tend to argue that sex is a response to values, not just a person's highest values.

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This would be the base of all disagreements between Objectivists about sex. You're just making an assertion here. Since you haven't yet had any sex yourself, I'm not sure how you're drawing this sweeping conclusion.

I have noticed that the loudest mouths on the "sex only with One-And-Only/Lifelong-Spouse/Single-Lover" side of the sex debates are those who have not even tried the other side! Those who live the other side tend to argue that sex is a response to values, not just a person's highest values.

Um, and? That's like saying "those who argue for atheism simply haven't tried the other side! the people on the other side would argue that God *can* and *does* exist!" And, so what? Lots of people can argue lots of things; doesn't make them right just because they can.

As someone who does believe in sex only with the single one you love and whom you may even see as a lifelong spouse, and who has had sex, I would like to defend this point of view. One that Ayn Rand very clearly defended in her Playboy interview for several reasons. Sex *is* properly only a response to one's highest values embodied in another human being. Any less and it wouldn't be worth it. Not that there's anything holding you back, but it just wouldn't be worth my time to pursue such a meaningless, go-nowhere relationship when I have the alternative of a (possibly) life-long, completely respecting, trusting, and loving relationship with someone who embodies all my highest values and maybe even lesser ones. The sex is amazing and can't be topped.

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