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Youth and (lack of) sex

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I hope this isn't an inappropriate topic to bring up for my first post, but I've read so much helpful advice in this forum through my lurking that I think I may be able to get a helpful answer here.

I am twenty years old and each day that passes makes me more and more depressed about my current situation. I'm a college student at a major university, entering my senior year. I have a good social life, a good amount of friends, an active schedule, and am in pretty decent physical shape. My friends tell me I have a good eye for fashion and always look presentable. There's just one problem that I am quite embarrassed about - to this day, I am still a virgin.

I have no difficulty talking with girls, and am even good friends with a few. It confuses me to no end that I have still not been able to have sex, even though my "standards" for who I choose to pursue have only gotten lower as time goes on. There is little else I want more than to lose my virginity, as my mind and body are unmistakably telling me that "it's time." I see sex all around me at college, and both my roommates are sexually active in relationships, which doesn't help matters. It's gotten to the point where I am not even concerned about having a relationship - I just want the sex so that I can rid this concern from my mind.

It's not a question of impotence - I am an active squash player and am in decent physical shape, with a high endurance and a healthy appetite. It's not a question of personality - if I am able to be friends with girls, then surely I should be able to have a girlfriend? So I'm not truly sure what it is. Every article I've read by Ayn Rand regarding sex has been enlightening, but not helpful to my predicament. (I can't tell if I'm poorly deciphering her words, or if she hasn't brought the topic up.) It doesn't help that in Anthem, the main character is having "legitimate" sex before the age of 21, but I suppose it does help that in Atlas Shrugged, d'Anconia displays the virtue of not sleeping with every slut that offers their body to him.

I know it isn't proper to concern myself with the activities of other people, but I can't help but notice these things and draw parallels, since I don't see what I'm doing so wrong that so many others are doing correctly. Since I am fairly certain that I am not mentally handling this problem correctly, what would be the proper way of contextualizing and processing my issue so that I can improve myself?

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This would be the base of all disagreements between Objectivists about sex. You're just making an assertion here. Since you haven't yet had any sex yourself, I'm not sure how you're drawing this sweep

Of course you will be disappointed if you are looking for more out of the experience than is to be expected. A person who you are having sex with is still a person, who you will connect with (or n

I think you're trying too hard. The more you focus on the narrow goal of simply losing your virginity, the more likely it is that when it does happen you will do it with the wrong person and it will be a bad experience for you. Lowering your standards is not the answer. I know you say you have female friends but do you hang out with them a lot? Do you hang out with them in a group or are you able to spend some time with the girls alone? My advice to you would be to find a few girls you enjoy hanging out with one-on-one and developing those friendships, and see if they turn into something more. If you end up really valuing one of these girls, don't be shy about making a move on her. Be casual about it but let your intentions be known so that she can't mistake what you're after.

Remember that there's no value to losing your virginity in and of itself. What's the sense in having sex if it's crappy, awkward, and embarassing?

Oh yeah, and for the sake of full disclosure, I'm female. I don't know if that will change your interpretation of my advice any but I thought I'd put it out there.

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I sent you a PM. For anyone else reading this, I would just summarize with:

You should not lower your standards and destroy your self-esteem just to achieve this arbitrary goal. I believe 40 Year Old Virgin refers to your syndrome as "putting the pussy on a pedestal". :D I've had plenty of experience with that problem, and it doesn't lead to anything good. And if you find someone interested in you, don't misrepresent your own interest in them just to achieve this goal - that would be receiving the unearned.

Edited by brian0918
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If you want to have sex and be sexually active, then just do it! I know, easier said than done... but only at first. Once you become sexually active, like anything you will become more and more comfortable with everything it involves. You can just plan on it being awkward (not necessarily very awkward) at first, like any new thing you do. A person who is in to you will be forgiving, as long as you always try to have a good time.

If you are attractive and not a total creep (ask your friends), there are plenty of people out there who are willing to sleep with you and who have already thought about sleeping with you. So, nothing to worry about there.

How to begin? It really comes down to taking the initiative to make moves. Sex doesn't just happen, there are back-and-forth signals between people that lead to sex. Talking, flirting, touching, all to varying degrees depending on the people.

You should not feel guilty about having sex just for the sake of having sex. You have zero experience, so you don't have a good idea what you're looking for yet. That is what (safe, of course) sex is all about! Once you start getting more comfortable, at the same time you will also be making judgements - about the kind of person you'd like to sleep with, not just the kind of body. This process happens at varying rates depending on the person.

If you need the security of the wise and the old, in a podcast, Dr. Leonard Peikoff advised young, inexperienced people to have sex in order to figure out what they want. (Try a text search for it here).

Don't stress too much about the age you've reached as a virgin. In the long run it will have virtually no bearing on your sex life. People of all ages have sex, and all this means is that you are a 20-year-old having sex instead of any other age having sex.

Be safe, have fun, and keep your mind turned on.

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I was a virgin until I was 18. There was one woman before my wife. She was a one night stand and not worth the effort it took to fuck her.

I wish I had waited for my wife (I met her less than 6 months later). I've been faithfully married for 25 years this September.

It's not about getting laid. It's about making a connection with someone whom you love respect and who reflects your values.

There is no shame to virginity. There is considerable shame in being a whore for whoreing's sake.

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Surely there is a girl or two you are physically attracted to? Be yourself and be confident in your own value. Tell her you are into her and see where it goes. If you don't have the courage to tell her you can always just invite her over for a movie (in college, the "movie date" is extremely clutch).

Initially you will fail, probably a lot. It sucks but most things worth doing arn't easy. Also I'm not going to say this isn't a big deal because sex is probably one of the greatest pleasures on earth.

The Ayn Rand Bookstore has an excellent lecture series titled "The Rational Basis of Romance" and a few others that may help. I could reccomend a dozen other movies, books, etc but bottom line is you need to get out there and get some experience failing before you will succeed.

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Zip's post (as short as it was) is probably one of the most valuable posts on love and sexuality I've seen on this forum in a while. Having recently tied the knot myself, I can attest to what you've said. As I see it, sex is the ultimate form of physically expressing love. Why waste it on someone who isn't worth your time? VALUE YOURSELF!!

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If you don't have the courage to tell her you can always just invite her over for a movie (in college, the "movie date" is extremely clutch).

Just out of curiosity, are you using the term as urban dictionary defines it? Roughly as performing well in difficult situations? I've never heard the word "clutch" used the way you did here, so I'm not really sure what you meant.

As to the OP, I think you've pretty much got everything down. Physical fitness, friendships with women already (so you're not all tongue-tied around them), interests, etc. I mean, at this point, it is really just a matter of finding someone you really like and getting to know them better. Shouldn't be much of a problem to enter a valuable relationship if you try. Just trying to get laid isn't a good idea, and if that is your only real focus you will likely come across as unattractive, only after one thing, or needy. Not good.

Of course, I don't have much background in this area, as I've only had one girlfriend, for a few months, two years ago now, and haven't dated since. So the whole "meeting" and "dating" thing, I can't really help you in. Haha.

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If you are great with making friends with women and are a good guy but you still aren't attracting them romantically, you are probably projecting yourself as a friend and companion rather than a masculine, sexual being. I don't mean a sexually promiscuous being, I just mean someone attractive to them in regard to chemistry, rather than being another one of their girlfriends.

There are a lot of articles on the internet on how to stay away from the "friend zone," some good and some bad. I suggest you do as much reading as you can on them. Be sure to read articles about "nice guys" not being able to get women by the better pick up artist writers. A lot of guys complain of doing everything "right"--being logically satisfying to what they believe a woman's needs are, yet they always end up becoming like one of her girlfriends or her best friend. Often the girl will even tell him, "You are like the ideal guy" and then one day, two years later, he will finally make a move on her and she will be creeped out, because she only ever saw you as a friend. Most often these guys have a good list of qualities going for them but they aren't decision makers, pursuers, or have a sense of fun with women.

And like others said, don't put the cart before the horse. Work on getting some chemistry with good women, the sex will follow.

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While there are some people on this threat who regret having sex before they met "the one," I don't think waiting is necessary. Whie you probably/hopefully will enjoy sex to the fullest when you meet your sourmate, there is plenty of opportunity here to enjoy sex with someone nice and attractive who you know you'll never marry.

Sex was meant to be enjoyed, not fret over. And Startrooper is so right - you probably will fail along the line of woing a nice girl. So what? Learn from it. We all get rejected at some point. It's ultimatel no big deal.

Oh, and you say you're not nervous. That's terrific. But being nervous is okay too. It's perfectly normal.

Go for it.

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While there are some people on this threat who regret having sex before they met "the one," I don't think waiting is necessary. Whie you probably/hopefully will enjoy sex to the fullest when you meet your sourmate, there is plenty of opportunity here to enjoy sex with someone nice and attractive who you know you'll never marry.

Sex was meant to be enjoyed, not fret over. And Startrooper is so right - you probably will fail along the line of woing a nice girl. So what? Learn from it. We all get rejected at some point. It's ultimatel no big deal.

Oh, and you say you're not nervous. That's terrific. But being nervous is okay too. It's perfectly normal.

Go for it.

Hmmm, don't get me wrong. I'm not hung up on "the one" that would require omniscience which, sadly I haven't mastered yet. :D

But in my case I, like Tux, thought there was something wrong with me and I sought out a one night stand just to get the job done. I don't even remember the girls name. She meant nothing to me and that is the shame. I dropped my standards and my values basically to use this woman as a human sex doll and that's wrong for me... and for her.

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Zip, there's a nice medium between using a woman whose name you can't remember and finding the "ultimate." There are women whose company you can enjoy and want to be with, even if it isn't forever. It's all a learning process, to see what you really want and need. Enjoy the ride.

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Zip, there's a nice medium between using a woman whose name you can't remember and finding the "ultimate." There are women whose company you can enjoy and want to be with, even if it isn't forever. It's all a learning process, to see what you really want and need. Enjoy the ride.

I could have sworn that's what I said. :D

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Just out of curiosity, are you using the term as urban dictionary defines it? Roughly as performing well in difficult situations? I've never heard the word "clutch" used the way you did here, so I'm not really sure what you meant.

I'm using the popular usage. From urbandictionary:

Clutch, N. Exactly what you need, exactly when you need it.

"The other day I was really hungry but thought I had no money on me. Then I found five dollars in my jacket pocket--that was clutch."

I always adjust my diction for my audience (in this case, a 20 y.o. college kid trying to get laid). It is part of the art of rhetoric.

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I'm 22 tomorrow, and I'm still a virgin. I'm attractive and charismatic. Sometimes, I get concerned about being a virgin as well, but it's not something that you should be concerned about.

Sex isn't a duty; it's something that you partake in when you deem it appropriate to your values. Sex is meaningless and shouldn't be pursued if it doesn't involve someone that you value greatly. You should focus on things that actually matter to you, like finding a good woman or doing well in school, not social stigmas and the approval of jackasses.

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I don't think anyone is suggesting that the OP wait until he finds his future wife to have sex, not even Zip. But you can still have high standards and wait for someone you care about deeply. It doesn't have to be forever, but it shouldn't be "just tonight". Is this a person you have feelings for? Is this someone you value on multiple levels? Would you make her breakfast the next morning? Is it someone who, even if things don't work out romantically, you would still want to be friends with?

To some of the people on here who say that a first time must be awkward by definition I disagree. When two people care about each other a great deal and they have taken sufficient time to explore their own bodies and desires (do this!!!!), I think a first time can be a really positive and satisfying experiences. One of the things I think really trips people up is that they're drunk or otherwise impaired. Try to make sure you and your lady friend are sober (or no more than a couple drinks). This should greatly improve focus and reduce fumbling. Also, communicate. You ought to feel comfortable enough with this girl to ask her what she wants.

Objectivists and their close philosophical cousins do not always see eye-to-eye on sex, and you can see that I think even in this thread. Some are overly puritanical, others overly hedonistic. I will not tell you to find a "happy medium"...the point is to pursue your values. Clearly sex is a value, but context is everything.

Here is a little more specific advice to get you out of that "friend zone". This may not work for all women but I know it is something I like. It's nearly summer. Do you swim? Offer to take a girl swimming, preferably in a wild (but safe!!!) setting. Movie nights are nice but it's all dark and you're covered up in something of a formless mass of clothes, unless you're wearing a tight t-shirt or something. The point of going swimming isn't to show off. In fact I advise against this. The point is to show her your physicality and let her think it over a bit. Let her see the lines of your body and the confident way in which you use it. On a nice sunny day with the water rolling off your back...hm, I'll be in my bunk. You see where I'm going with this.

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I'm 22 tomorrow, and I'm still a virgin. I'm attractive and charismatic. Sometimes, I get concerned about being a virgin as well, but it's not something that you should be concerned about.

I disagree. Being a virgin in your 20's is something worth being legitimately concerned about. Seeking sex-in-itself as a goal is mistaken but this is certainly a cause for introspection.

I can see reasons why a rational man may find himself a virgin in his 20's (eg. enviornmental: spending one's school years in boarding school). However, I think that under normal circumstances that if there is otherwise nothing else wrong with your ethical framework (you don't view sex as evil) and you maintain honest and healthy relationships with the other sex then by around the age of 19 pretty much everyone should have been able to find a girl/guy worth sleeping with and the opportunity to do so.

There is nothing uncommon about being a virgin in your 20's, I'm sure, but under normal circumstances it does indicate that you are doing something wrong. The list could run to exhaustion: afraid to take risks, shy about feelings, dishonest with oneself/others, rationalist, bad breath, bad shoes, irrational expectations of others, etc. In retrospect the times in my life where I have been desperate to find a girlfriend have been my periods of greatest personal growth simply because I made a commitment to fix everything about myself that I could. The effort has always been 100% worth it in the end.

Edited by SkyTrooper
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There is nothing uncommon about being a virgin in your 20's, I'm sure, but under normal circumstances it does indicate that you are doing something wrong.

I don't quite see why it indicates you are doing something wrong.

I made the mistake of having sex at the age of 17 with a high-school peer simply because of the fact that he was gay and so was I, and he was the closest thing I thought I would ever get to a boyfriend-- I lived in a catholic country that is extremely ignorant as far as attitudes towards homosexuality go, and coming out of the closer and having a relationship with someone as one would normally do would accrue rather heavy consequences-- social ostracism, and with most good job opportunities out of your reach. At the time I was terribly depressed and living in the closet, I thought that the things which I longed for- being able to court someone, having a boyfriend, dating, and then finally 'going serious'- would be forever out of my reach and thus I decided that if those things were forever barred for me, I would at least experience intimacy the way most other gay men and women in my country did: behind closed doors, like a shameful secret.

It was a trainwreck, of course: We were both having sex not out of a desire motivated by an appreciation of each other or out of value, but truly out of desperation and having sex for the sake of having sex. By sensory standards, I guess, you could call the sex good, but having sex for sex's sake without any important context and emotional value, true value not simple lust, made the act all the more depressing because all it could be was a constant reminder of our desperation. Eventually we stopped having sex altogether and drifted apart, and I could have had sex with a myriad people that I found through the local internet gay forum--- but I didn't want more of the same, I wanted something real, and despite the many people I spoke to, I couldn't really find anyone I could establish the kind of connection I desired. I didn't know how to explain it then, but now I can say that I didn't share in the general sense of life that most people in the country had-- deep inside I've always known I resonated with the sense of life of America and its founding values. I was a fish out of water and I didn't want to compromise again for empty thrills.

I didn't find anyone who matched my (early) standards until I was 22 and had, thankfully, come to the US (something I thought I would never be able to do, hence my almost permanent depression during my teens). Although by my current (Objectivist) standards my first serious boyfriend at 22 was definitely not up to par (and it eventually showed in how dishonest he turned out to be), if I could change things knowing that I would eventually come here and be free to explore what was forbidden back home, I would have willingly waited those three more years, and it would not have meant that I was doing anything wrong.

It is perfectly possible, and specially so in today's world with the state of the culture as it is, that an Objectivist may not find anyone with whom they could form a meaningful relationship in his or her immediate vicinity, regardless of their age range.

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kainscalia, your post and story illustrate my point about experience and forming judgements about sex and sex partners. If you had known then what you know now... well, that is just a pointless thought exercise!

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kainscalia, your post and story illustrate my point about experience and forming judgements about sex and sex partners. If you had known then what you know now... well, that is just a pointless thought exercise!

Actually, you are dropping the context and completely ignoring the conditions of the situation: If a public relationship had been available to me without the risk of serious hostile repercussions upon myself and my family, then I would have pursued the relationship, not sex for sex's sake.

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Actually, you are dropping the context and completely ignoring the conditions of the situation: If a public relationship had been available to me without the risk of serious hostile repercussions upon myself and my family, then I would have pursued the relationship, not sex for sex's sake.
OK, maybe you weren't a great example... though you're not a great example for the OP, either.

No need to get on the "sex for the sake of sex" train that OO.net likes to send around. Nobody does that, there is always sex plus something else. Your something else was loneliness. The OP's something else is curiosity and desire.

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Zip, there's a nice medium between using a woman whose name you can't remember and finding the "ultimate." There are women whose company you can enjoy and want to be with, even if it isn't forever.

What is it that makes it nice, though? I guess I'm not helping the OP here, but I never understood this. I can see the merits of both extremes, but what are you getting in the middle? I can (sort of) relate to having sex with whomever you find hot, I can certainly relate to having sex with the one woman you love the most, but I could never do this "you're good for now, but it isn't forever" thing.

I mean, the two values you can derive from sleeping with a woman are 1, having a great sexual experience and 2, consummating a romantic relationship. If you are focusing on #1, the way to gain the greatest amount of value is to sleep with as many attractive women as you find. If you are going for #2 (which comes with #1 included, of course), then it has to be a real romantic relationship, with a woman you're in love with, not just some temporary "like you but don't quite really love you" kind of arrangement.

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www.rsdnation.com

(A site full of dating advice for men. Has philosophic discussions, and most regulars on the forum has read Ayn Rand's novels. There are some Objectivists there.)

Maybe half of it is completely bizarre but there are some gems here and there to get fom it.

Edited by patrik 7-2321
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