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Is this appropriate? (sex education)

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rebelconservative
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What do you make of this:

(warning: sexual content)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IOrfEDuyehY

My daughter's school wants to show that to a class of 10-11 year olds. I don't think it is at all appropriate. Parents get to watch the whole thing in advance on Monday and can withdraw her from the class if we choose. I do not think it is at all appropriate for such young children, nor will achieve the supposed purpose of reducing teen pregnancy. Telling kids that sex is exciting and fun and you have sex when you love someone (surely teachers know teen girls are so often in "love") is only going to lead to more under-age sex and more teen pregnancy.

I thought I'd just post it here to get an objective opinion on it.

Worse, after over-hearing her talking to her classmates about not watching it, her arrogant teacher told the whole class that they need to watch it, pressuring her and others, making her feel bad about our decision. I am furious.

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Simply on the grounds that the teacher informed the students that they "need" to watch this, you ought to oppose the teacher, maybe pursue some level of legal action. (I can just hear your daughter shrieking about you ruining her life).

IMO the clip is not appropriate for any purpose that I can imagine. As a sex-ed clip, it is simply incompetent -- it fails to do what it should do. That is, it does not even educate. It is simply a waste of time.

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MG - this is what they're showing 10-year olds in school!!!! I must be from a different planet. This not only teaches NOTHING, but is soooo inappropriate, it leaves me speechless. I mean, we've educating our 10-year old on different sexual positions, yet so many can't write, spell or read properly upon graduation????? Help!!!!!

These kids know so little, but god help us, if the reports are to be believed, the average 13-year old can perform oral sex to perfection.

Is the school board okay with this video?

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Well that was, pornographic...

The whole topic of sex is very complicated from all perspectives, ethically (all the goods and bads that can come from it), biologically (how it works), psychologically (its affect on the psyche/personality). I don't think a/an 10/11 year old can learn anything (meaningful, that isn't out of context) but the most basic facts about it (feels good, makes babies, affects one emotionally, dangerous when done improperly).

What to do? Call the media, this should stir up a storm.

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Since others have weighed in on the video itself, and aside from that its inappropriate nature for the age group is self evident I guess I'll just kick the dead horse of the larger issue.

Something that starts on a bad premise will always end badly. Since things don't exist in isolated moments in time we have entropy. Something started on a bad premise will tend to get continually worse.

Enforced public education is already an abrogation of parental rights. Once the government decides that they should be teaching your child a false version of history, fairness, citizenship & morality what would make you think that they would not continue their trajectory into teaching your 10 year old to have sex?

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Since others have weighed in on the video itself, and aside from that its inappropriate nature for the age group is self evident I guess I'll just kick the dead horse of the larger issue.

Something that starts on a bad premise will always end badly. Since things don't exist in isolated moments in time we have entropy. Something started on a bad premise will tend to get continually worse.

Enforced public education is already an abrogation of parental rights. Once the government decides that they should be teaching your child a false version of history, fairness, citizenship & morality what would make you think that they would not continue their trajectory into teaching your 10 year old to have sex?

That nailed it !

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As a dad of an 11 year old, I see nothing objectionable about the video.

In itself, yes I agree - but wouldn't you rather choose to show it to your child in his/her own home, and at the time you think is appropriate?

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In itself, yes I agree - but wouldn't you rather choose to show it to your child in his/her own home, and at the time you think is appropriate?
If the whole video is along the same lines at this: i.e with objective facts (e.g. penis gets hard, vagina gets moist), and also with a positive philosophy (e.g. they love each other, and it is fun), I would be fine with my son seeing it in school. Truth is that when I've tried to show him stuff like this, he's totally uninterested, and is more likely to go "eeeew!" or to start making jokes than to watch it seriously.

I do understand that sex is a topic on which many people have very strong views, so if I had a vote I would vote NOT to show it in public school. I suppose if the opt-out was real (i.e. none of the pressure that has been described) I'd be fine with that. However, my kid would not be one of those opting out.

Edited by softwareNerd
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This is actually marketed as suitable for 7-9 year olds...

I found the full video here -

http://www.teachers.tv/videos/how-babies-are-made

The whole thing is about 13 minutes and that first part I found is only a short part of it, though there is another cartoon later showing penetration. It is simply not suitable for 11 year old, certainly not 7-9 year olds.

The words used to describe sex throughout are only positive and encouraging, and though it is mentioned ad infinitum that this is what "grown ups" do, what message is it sending to kids when they are told that sex: "makes you happy" "feels wonderful" "is exciting" "sharing good feelings" and "When you love someone, you touch them," "It is natural to have sex when you love someone"? Teenagers think they are grown up and are frequently "in love", responsible adults should be protecting their interests.

They also point out that "you don’t always make babies when you have sex" - a statement of fact to be sure, but one that runs counter to the supposed purpose of the whole Sex Education project. The real purpose remains that of Hungarian communist Lukacs, who instituted the first comprehensive sex ed programs to subvert traditional Christian morality as part of cultural Marxism.

There is also a lesbian couple who don't really belong in a video about "how babies are made" - at least one that doesn't discuss IVF and sperm donation.

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If the whole video is along the same lines at this: i.e with objective facts (e.g. penis gets hard, vagina gets moist), and also with a positive philosophy (e.g. they love each other, and it is fun)

The problem is that whilst sex can and should be all of those things, sex can also have very bad, negative physical and psychological consequences, especially for young children. There is a reason why we have an age of consent set at 16 in the UK, children below that age are not mentally or emotionally ready for a sexual relationship. This is an encouragement to children to experminent, without regard for the potential consequences. You cannot combat alcoholism by sending the message that alcohol tastes nice, helps you to be more sociable and makes you feel relaxed and merry.

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RebelConservative, Without seeing the whole video, and understanding it as a whole, it is really hard to make more of a comment than I did above.

I would assume that this video, or the other videos to be shown subsequently, or other teaching, will explain much more than leaving it as "sex is good, fun and loving". On the top of my head, I would want kids to understand how adults sometimes take advantage of kids, and what they should watch out for, and how they should not feel any guilt about reporting such things to their parents. Second, any sex-ed course should stress that one of the worst things that can happen to a kid engaging in experimental sex is pregnancy, and to drive home the point with many concretes. This would entail talking about ways of birth control, and also 101 ways to say "no", but it is much more: it needs kids to understand what a tragedy a pregnancy would likely be. Much lower down on the list, they should know about STDs. I'm sure there's more, but that's the gist that would have to be provided as balance.

The problem is that whilst sex can and should be all of those things, sex can also have very bad, negative physical and psychological consequences, especially for young children.
I'm not sure what consequences you're talking about. Are you referring to an adult taking advantage of a kid?

There is a reason why we have an age of consent set at 16 in the UK, children below that age are not mentally or emotionally ready for a sexual relationship.
I'm afraid you're either begging the question here, or making an argument from authority.

This is an encouragement to children to experminent, without regard for the potential consequences.
I haven't studied a cross-section of kids, so everything I say is with my own 11-year old in view. In that context, if I think about him and his closest female friend, I can see absolutely no substantial negative consequences in any experimentation they might actually do. As I said above, parents know their kids, and can have the option to keep this stuff from them. (Do consider that this is not their only source of information. So, realistically, by not showing this video, you are relinquishing the control of learning to informal sources like peers and older kids.)

You cannot combat alcoholism by sending the message that alcohol tastes nice, helps you to be more sociable and makes you feel relaxed and merry.
In my (non-scientific and personal) experience, appropriate early exposure to alcohol is extremely useful in cultivating a mature attitude toward it as an adolescent.
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The angle of this video leaves a good amount of things to be desired. Most importantly, when we talk about sex we need to keep in mind that this must be an age-appropriate context: It's not enough to talk to kids about sex, but rather it is important to use material that is appropriate to their level of development. When I reached a certain age (I am trying to remember whether I was 10, 11 or 12, I can't remember) my parents gave me both a book and a video tape called "Where Did I Come From?" which explained the whole issue in a factual manner but with appropriate content considering my age, and very tastefully presented. Both the book and the video have a good amount of humor as well, which helps defuse the embarrassment some parents might have concerning 'The Talk.' The tone of the book/video were also much less condescending than the tone of this video, which I would have found infuriating as a kid.

I'm not sure what consequences you're talking about. Are you referring to an adult taking advantage of a kid?

I understand what he is referring to: Engaging in sexual behavior at a younger age is potentially dangerous both physically and psychologically--- sex isn't bad, but it is not the optimal choice for their development at that particular stage (that this is a fact of reality, by nature of their bodies and mental/emotional selves at that particular age), and that the risks and potential scarring (through emotional and psychological immaturity) outweigh any possible benefit at their stage of immaturity. Sex, because of its nature, carries an immense level of significance that most youths and teenagers are not prepared to handle at all, and which will blow up in their faces-- not to mention most likely atrophy a healthy regards towards it. As Rand put it in her Playboy interview, "Sex is one of the most important aspects of man’s life and, therefore, must never be approached lightly or casually. A sexual relationship is proper only on the ground of the highest values one can find in a human being. Sex must not be anything other than a response to values. And that is why I consider promiscuity immoral. Not because sex is evil, but because sex is too good and too important. "

Edited by kainscalia
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  • 5 weeks later...

I have to agree with rebelconservative but i dont think for the same reasons. sex is something so complex (i mean the reasons why we do it other than procreation) that kids and teenagers should just find out on their own, what happened to them just figuring it all out by themselves? no one ever told me how to do it, and i did a fine job my first time. My point is sex education is pointless, especially at a young age when you dont know whats going on, it can leave some kids views on sex skewed. I know if i saw that video id wanna have sex the first chance i got.

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I know if i saw that video id wanna have sex the first chance i got.

This is exactly the problem, what is bizarre is that its purported aim is to reduce teen pregnancy. That some people actually believe it is shocking beyond belief.

Anyway, my daughter didn't watch it. Only one other parent bothered to turn up to the viewing (also shocked by it), so virtually all the kids in her class watched it.

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I think an animation of intercourse cross-sections is not too bad, like encyclopedia britannica has on their site. However, unfortunately I couldn't see the video... but I did want to comment. For example to me, showing an animation of getting an erection, or an animation of the 'moistening' of the vagina, (or actual models!) crazy details like that that would seem more to titillate than educate about the essential material is inappropriate and ineffectual when presented to anyone age 7 to 12.

I don't mean to derail this entirely, so if need be, I can move this to another thread... but anybody concerned about the accessibility of Wikipedia in their children's elementary to middle (or even high) schools, or in their children's libraries? Look up the anatomical parts and their functions on wikipedia (particularly ejaculation). I did this in my elementary school, and at the youth computers in the library. It was shocking to me that this was accessible, more shocking than a video like this.

I complained to the school and they blocked it. I complained that this wasn't living up to the filtering standard put in by Colorado for youths to the library and after a month and a half of deliberation they completely ignored me. Anyone else concerned about this?

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... but anybody concerned about the accessibility of Wikipedia in their children's elementary to middle (or even high) schools, or in their children's libraries? Look up the anatomical parts and their functions on wikipedia (particularly ejaculation).
Link to the Wiki article. What do you find objectionable about this?
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The issue is age appropriateness, not objectionable material. This is not material that is suitable for the age bracket of most schools. The level of explicit content, including live video of an ejaculation, is less than suitable. Keep the context in mind, that this content in this level of explicitness is available to children in libraries. Contextually appropriate material, this is not.

Edited by kainscalia
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This is not material that is suitable for the age bracket of most schools. The level of explicit content, including live video of an ejaculation, is less than suitable.
Why?

Are you worried about misinterpretation because if the material is seen by kids without adult commentary? (I can understand that.)

Or, are you saying that it is inappropriate for a parent to show a kid video of ejaculation to explain one aspect of human sex?

Edited by softwareNerd
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Link to the Wiki article. What do you find objectionable about this?

I do not find distributing mature materials among adults objectionable. I do not find sexual education objectionable. I do not find diagrams objectionable. Every mainstream encyclopedia I could find besides Wikipedia had diagrams, and there are diagrams for a reason. I find it objectionable in the sense that if I distributed that material to a minor it would be illegal in my state, yet as long as its accessible at schools and youth computers at libraries, the government is doing it. To elaborate:

I argue that there is material that is considered too mature for minors on various grounds, both from personal experience, cultural experience, and downright common sense. In my experience working with hundreds of kids, I can't imagine how the images of real-model erections, video of a grown man's ejaculation, etc. could be considered seriously educational. I am talking of children below the age of thirteen if I need to be more specific, though I believe you can go higher. I want to know what the true educational value is of those purely supplementary materials? What do they add to the information for a child?

Allowing a minor to access this material, even on his own volition of typing or linking to the word penis or ejaculation, is irresponsible. I apologize for having to be graphic in advance. If I paraded a naked man into a sexual education class, or even as just personal sexual education of my child, and he (masturbated, though not in the video, and) ejaculated in front of them, I think it would be unquestionably disturbing to the majority of youths. To even be presented a video of that in a sex education curriculum could be psychologically damaging. When this is accessible in government schools, it is the same thing as doing that in sex education class. I believe it is entirely possible to relate the physical and emotional mechanics of sex in much more healthy, stable, and honestly, mature ways.

I know that this topic will probably not be supported by many Objectivists because it may seem culturally and emotionally driven. I argue that it's not. Children are not adults, and we can't pretend they are. A minor cannot buy alcohol, or cigarettes for instance because of this fact. Minors process information differently, feel differently, judge reality differently (even arguably impaired), and are physiologically different than adults. What is the EXACT right thing to do? I'm afraid I don't have that answer, but I don't believe allowing this material on youth computers or in the public schools is it.

NOTE EDIT: If a parent wants to show this to their child and explain it to them, that's fine by me.

Edited by asherwolf
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Link to the Wiki article. What do you find objectionable about this?

Sex is celebratory. But what is properly celebrated by sex is something exponentially bigger than winning a football game. Sex is romantic. But sex belongs at the culmination of romantic passion, not at the level of crushes or infatuation.

Sure, the culture at large fails to grasp, much less promote, a proper context for sex, but why force that depraved view of life on children?

Sex-eduation in our schools teaches the mechanics and morbidities of copulation without there being even the possibility of setting the proper context in terms of character-based passion and mature values.

Anyone else notice how obsessed our schools are with the gender and sexuality of their charges? It's creepy.

-- Mindy

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