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Army Altruism and Individualism

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HolyLandMan
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I live in isreal. Which is a socialist-Jewish country.

I am an indevidual, I don't Identify with any group or society.

I was born to a jewish familly but I am not Jewish, in the sense that I don't bulive in that not even one bit.

I am an atheist.

According to the "law" here I have to go to the army for 3 years.

My familly wants me to go, the governament wants me to go, and most of society wants me to go.

An entire country will hate on me if I won't go, My familly won't accept this, and some people won't accept me to jobs here.

But If I'll go, I won't be living according to my values.

Thats not the life I dream of- finishing army at age 21 with the same ammount of monney, no job, no education, just to live in a socialist-jewish country- Even though I am defently not a socaialist or jewish.

My father payes 50% tax rate here, +100% tax on cars. And I say- WHAT FOR?! WHO GETS ALL THIS MONNEY?

I won't fullfill a lot of my dreams by living here, and I won't reach my potential... I will be forced to do a job THAT I DIDN'T CHOOSE for 3 years accrording to the "army needs" & work selflessly for a society for an undefined cause.

Whatever I will do there, I will do my best as a self standart. Not for anything else.

I don't feel connection to the "Isreali jewish society", exept for the "jewish" lable that racists put on us-'cause my mom is jewish. And yep maby there are lots of racists and religios fanatics out there who want to kill me 'cause of that.

Its rediculos, Its like making a country just for black people and forcing them all to live a certain way 'cause there are stupied racists in the world who hate on them.

Is that a violation of human rights or what?!

Will that be Altruizem if I go to the army? I don't think that I will be able to live this way.

And how can I deal with it?

I don't think that I could be able to LIVE for someone elses sake. It will just kill my spirt. Thank you its very important to me.

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Is that a violation of human rights or what?!

Will that be Altruizem if I go to the army? I don't think that I will be able to live this way.

And how can I deal with it?

Ask Yaron Brook, executive director of the Ayn Rand Institute and veteran of the Isreali army.

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Will that be Altruizem if I go to the army? I don't think that I will be able to live this way.
Slaves are not altruists, unless they are "slaving" for others because they think that is good (i.e. moral). I don't know your laws, so if you choose the best option for yourself, from among the bad options possible to you, that is not being altruistic.

(PS: You should spell-check your posts.)

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Being drafted is a violation of your rights.

You basically have the options of getting out of the country, or trying to make the best of a bad situation. Neither is altruistic. So if you do indeed get conscripted or whatever they call it in your country try to get something out of it.

I am sorry that you live in that area of the world.

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Yes, I can go to college or university (I got pretty high grades in highschool). My english is pretty solid so I can also do it abroad.

The thing is:



  • In Order to get out of the army you have to basiclly play it mentally crazy.
  • I don't think I get out of the country that easy.
  • I know my familly REALLY won't like it. They are certenly not going to help so I'll have to do that whole think on my own.
  • Will other countries (and esepcially USA) allow me in and give me citizenship?

Is there solution to some of these things?

And how can I ask/talk to Yaron Brook?

Edited by HolyLandMan
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Is that a violation of human rights or what?!

Obviously yes.

Will that be Altruizem if I go to the army? I don't think that I will be able to live this way.

Not if you don't have a choice.

And how can I deal with it?

Can you leave Israel? You do not sound happy there. The USA is far from perfect, but it's closer to free than Israel.

Will the USA grant you citizenship? Yes - or at least a Visa - but you need a sponsor. Do you have any Family in the United States who can sponsor you?

http://travel.state.gov/visa/immigrants/types/types_1326.html

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It is my understanding that you could go to college before you serve in the Army, in Israel. That would buy you a couple of years, to find a way to leave Israel or become independent enough to be able to ignore your family's plans for you (and contest the conscription on ideological grounds, like the pacifists).

Did you talk to your parents about helping you go to college in Israel, instead of joining the Army?

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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I don't think that I could be able to LIVE for someone elses sake. It will just kill my spirt. Thank you its very important to me.
We entirely sympathize, but the ideal alternative of living for your own sake does not exist. Argentina, Australia, the Bahamas, Belgium, France, Hungary, Malta, New Zealand, Spain, US and Canada don't have conscription. Everybody has taxation and regulation. So I think your primary question is whether there is anything good about Israel that makes it more desirable than some other conscription-free country. The second question is whether that other country is a realistic alternative: my estimation is that you would not be allowed to emigrate to the US in order to avoid the Israeli draft. However, you might be able to move to Canada, though they may have changed their policies since Viet Nam. Assuming you have an Israeli passport, you are entitled to enter Canada without a visa, and could apply for refugee status once there. I assume you're aware of the options for staying in Israel and find them repulsive or inapplicable.
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If you were to go to college first, could you get a technical position in the army, even some position that would enhance your education?

It's very difficult to deal with your family in this sort of situation. I suggest spending some time, with paper and pencil, writing down the underlying values that you share with your family and jewish society and Israel, such as: you are devoted to being a good person, you think Israel ought to be allowed to exist, you love your family...whatever is true. This way, when you talk with them, you can avoid (well, hopefully) the hysterical responses that by not going into the army you are opposing Israel as a nation, you are rejecting your family members, you have gone over to the devil, etc. Just as jews want to be allowed to live as they see fit, so you want to be able to live as you see fit.

Wish you the best in this.

Mindy

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I don't have any familly abroad so no one can sponser me. My phisical condition is too high to serve in technical positions.

Altough I might get a "good" role, Or even commanding role- (some elite units already contacted me)

The thing is that in order to serve in thouse roles you have to sign for auditional years. A double edged sword.

And I am not intrested in that.

There is a certain arrangement that you can do with the army here, (And they contacted me too) which is- to go first to a university in isreal- and than go back to the army for 6 instead of 3 years.

I don't like this option because thats taking my freedoom for 9-10 years instead of just 3, and I am not sure yet what I want to learn.

My parrents don't consider any other option for me than going to the army. They tell me I am "selfish and always care about myself" as if its a bad thing.

Thier morality is altruistic and fucked up so there is no reason to talk to them.

Well, considering the fact that there is no better option for me at the moment I guess I will join the army.

I'll view the army is a challenge and certainly do my best, but as a self standart and not as means to so political/religios/idiological/social cause that I don't identify with, and honestly think is retarded.

If I'll feel that I am not growing and getting value out of it, (in other words- wasting my time) I'll leave and deal with all the troubles that comes with it.

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While you may not have the choice to enter the military, you can do everything possible in the situation forced upon you to do your absolute best and get the most possible from it.

Meanwhile, there *must* be some American based companies in Israel... perhaps you could make a connection with one of them and possibly work out some kind of "sponsor me and I'll work for you for X years while and after getting a degree" arrangement...

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I'll view the army is a challenge and certainly do my best, but as a self standart and not as means to so political/religios/idiological/social cause that I don't identify with, and honestly think is retarded.

The purpose of the IDF is to defend Israel, and the lives of the Jews (and probably most others) living there. There is nothing retarded about that, it is a perfectly worthy cause. Just because we don't think you should be forced to join it, don't assume anyone here agrees with your views.

And from everything I read, you can opt out of military service in Israel. Pacifists do it all the time. Why don't you?

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