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Koran Burning in Florida: Called Off

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It only took repeated visits from the FBI, outraged comments from pretty much every American leader, promises to not cover it from news groups who in the past aired American secrets obtained illegally without blinking, and denunciations from the Vatican and the UK. (oh yeah, and violent protests and death threats from Muslims )

Then again, the freedom of expression which allowed Americans to commit similar gestures in the past without fear of violence (aimed at the Bible, most often), cost millions of American soldiers their lives. So, even in light of all that talk and outrage, our current leaders invested relatively little effort into just giving it away.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100909/ap_on_re_us/quran_burning

Edited by Jake_Ellison
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Both actions, the Draw Mohammed Day and Quran burning offend moderate Muslims (although I would contend that anyone offended by either of these events to openly detest the very events for reasons other than those highlighted below, i.e. respect for their religion or religious ideas/rules are not in fact "moderate") and give extremists ammunition for the propaganda machine. While we have the right to free speech we must be realize that our speech has consequences. I am not suggesting we base our expression of that right based on the consequences, but Draw Mohammed day was an international event started by a Danish cartoonist about freedom of speech, the Quran burning is just about hate and propagating a Christian worldview. It doesn't have any real clear or valid message, it is simply to get a rise in people. Iran is already spitting it out of their PR machine:

Jerusalem Post: Iran FM states Israel Behind Planned Book Burning

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?ID=187647&R=R1&utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=facebook

It is of course their full right to do it. I just feel this is based more on hatred, religion and emotionalism (things, I feel, Objectivists should not support regardless of what form they are in) , rather than reason, principles, and critical thought.

Also, for anyone unaware, Obama made a video statement about it as well:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/09/09/indonesia.quran.letter/?hpt=T2

While Obama is correct that such actions give the extremist groups more anti-America material (as if they need any, we give them plenty unintentionally) it is a bit silly for him to suggest this is likely to increase violence in Pakistan and Afghanistan. As if it can increase much more than it has already, they are freaking war zones. We pay Pakistan's government to fund Taliban groups that kill our troops and the majority of the Afghanistan population already views our presence there as an invasion.

I personally have not followed this thing at all however, besides the random article here and there I end up running into. I haven't actively researched it so if my analysis of this event is incorrect due to my ignorance of some fact or another please correct me.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Of course the pastor's motivation was emotionalism, mysticism, and probably power-lust, CS, but that is not the point. The point is, Muslims cannot abide individual rights and once again we are being told not to exercise free speech because it will cause Muslims to kill people. This is the same as the Danish newspapers and South Park incidents. Everyone SHOULD burn the Koran, just like every newspaper should have printed those pictures, and Comedy Central should have shown that cartoon, not as a statement of Christianity or whatever the Florida pastor was attempting, not as a means of offending Muslims (though they will be offended and to hell with their feelings) but as a statement that we will not surrender our right to live.

This was a blow against individual rights in this country. To quote MSNBC anchor Chris Matthews from a few seconds ago: "We should stop saying people have a right to do things in this country. That just makes it seem like they have a moral claim to do something just because they have a legal right to do it."

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A shame. The people doing the burning were unattractive loons, but this is yet another instance of a double-standard being applied to Muslims as opposed to everybody else. IMHO the situation is ripe for a group to stage a Koran-burning for the express purpose of attacking the double-standard. If you really wanted to have fun, do a triple-burn: the Bible, the Koran and (to keep it fair) Atlas Shrugged. The point being to focus attention specifically on the fact that the principle of free expression (and the right to give offense) applies to *all* ideas.

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Sorry I won't be burning any books any time soon 2046, I don't need to resort to savage, anti-intellectual forms of protest of that kind to make my point. The media, liberals, and god knows who else may have acted inappropriately over this by making it a big deal when it should not have been. However, there are better ways to get your message across than this. If you want to start some unholy alliance with the rabid Christian right over this problem be my guest.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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Also: it's the political correctness of it all that is so sickening. For decades, 100's of thousands of US flags (the symbol of the achievement and greatness of a Nation) have been burnt on every dirty street in every dirty town with cameras rolling - and not a word of reproof from the world.

However, I cannot agree with returning the favour in kind and lowering one's own standards to the same level.

Double standards? Yes, and proud of it.

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Sorry I won't be burning any books any time soon 2046, I don't need to resort to savage, anti-intellectual forms of protest of that kind to make my point. The media, liberals, and god knows who else may have acted inappropriately over this by making it a big deal when it should not have been. However, there are better ways to get your message across than this. If you want to start some unholy alliance with the rabid Christian right over this problem be my guest.

It is not about Terry Jones or his message, it is about the reaction to it. When religious leaders in another country threaten violent protests to suppress the rights of an American, they are attacking the political body all Americans are already a part of.

In that sense, everyone's already aligned with Terry Jones, and denying him support against outside violence just because he is Christian negates the whole purpose of having a country. In my view, American leaders (including the general in charge of the Afghan war) have done exactly that, and everyone should protest their decision. Do you really think that it's gonna be any different when someone makes the best possible argument against Islam and gets threatened the same exact way?

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What is the point of burning a bunch of qurans if you arent even going to roast a nice, plump, juicy pig over it?

Geoff: I applaud you, what a great line, absolutely hilarious, I laughed out loud, thank you. :lol:

It is not about Terry Jones or his message, it is about the reaction to it. When religious leaders in another country threaten violent protests to suppress the rights of an American, they are attacking the political body all Americans are already a part of.

In that sense, everyone's already aligned with Terry Jones, and denying him support against outside violence just because he is Christian negates the whole purpose of having a country. In my view, American leaders (including the general in charge of the Afghan war) have done exactly that, and everyone should protest their decision. Do you really think that it's gonna be any different when someone makes the best possible argument against Islam and gets threatened the same exact way?

Jake: very nice analysis, I had to quote the entire post because I agree with every word, thank you for your conciseness.

I am not particularly enamored with the image of burning books (though if any books should be burned holy books should) it appears too fascistic. However, once he said he was going to do it and was then threatened, to back down is mollification and submission, which is just what the islamists demand. And as history and logic demonstrate, this only emboldens the enemy. This is the battle the enemy wants. They want to deny us our Rights and if they can get us to denounce our own Rights, then it will be one more stepping stone on the way to sharia. The politicians and the MSM have handed the islamists one more victory.

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It is not about Terry Jones or his message, it is about the reaction to it. When religious leaders in another country threaten violent protests to suppress the rights of an American, they are attacking the political body all Americans are already a part of.

In that sense, everyone's already aligned with Terry Jones, and denying him support against outside violence just because he is Christian negates the whole purpose of having a country. In my view, American leaders (including the general in charge of the Afghan war) have done exactly that, and everyone should protest their decision. Do you really think that it's gonna be any different when someone makes the best possible argument against Islam and gets threatened the same exact way?

I understand what you are saying, and I agree. That section you quoted was my personal position, I am not suggesting that others shouldn't do it. It is just that I would feel unsettled doing so knowing that *I* have alternative methods of relaying the same message (protest sign for instance) that doesn't get me queasy and feel fascistic or acting off my emotions.

Geoff: I applaud you, what a great line, absolutely hilarious, I laughed out loud, thank you. :lol:

Jake: very nice analysis, I had to quote the entire post because I agree with every word, thank you for your conciseness.

I am not particularly enamored with the image of burning books (though if any books should be burned holy books should) it appears too fascistic. However, once he said he was going to do it and was then threatened, to back down is mollification and submission, which is just what the islamists demand. And as history and logic demonstrate, this only emboldens the enemy. This is the battle the enemy wants. They want to deny us our Rights and if they can get us to denounce our own Rights, then it will be one more stepping stone on the way to sharia. The politicians and the MSM have handed the islamists one more victory.

I agree with this as well. Although I am a little more pessimistic as to the potentiality for Shariah (in the U.S., Europe's cultural appeasement is finally biting them in the ass and rightly so), and have a little more confidence in the rabid right in the South flipping out if it got to a point of worriment (this second statement has nothing to do with the first, just fyi) but that is another discussion entirely, and is somewhat irrelevant here as far as the main point.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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@Maximus I lived in El Paso, Texas for 14 years. Albiet that is a bit different than what people often refer to as the "redneck south".

Anyways I came across this just now, although I would read the article rather than just going off the title:

Afghans Attack NATO Base in Quran Burning Protest

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20016041-503543.html

EDIT:

These too:

Taliban Calls on Afghans to Avenge Quran Burning

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20016011-503543.html

Quran Burning Plan Prompts U.S. Travel Warning

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503543_162-20015990-503543.html

Edited by CapitalistSwine
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I'd be interested in that discussion as to the "rabid right wing in the South" flipping out, since I live here (in the South).

The preacher man ought to go ahead with it, especially since the Muslim yahoos have issued threats.

I'm torn on this.

While I think it is vile to back down from threats issued by extremists my friends in the army in A-stan are relieved.

People burning books from the relative safety and comfort of their homes here doesn't strike them as the principle they want to risk maiming and death for. I'm going to concede them that point.

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I'm torn on this.

While I think it is vile to back down from threats issued by extremists my friends in the army in A-stan are relieved.

People burning books from the relative safety and comfort of their homes here doesn't strike them as the principle they want to risk maiming and death for. I'm going to concede them that point.

You shouldn't. Plenty of American soldiers fought in far harsher conditions to defend exactly that principle.

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You shouldn't. Plenty of American soldiers fought in far harsher conditions to defend exactly that principle.

I think you missed my point.

To say they were relieved it didn't happen is not to say they do not believe in the right to do it.

To say that an irrational right-wing wing preacher's grandstanding is not the inciting moment they would prefer to lead to their death is not to say that they wouldn't want to die for the principle of free speech.

By conceding the point I am not saying that it is a good thing that people are being intimidated into backing down- as much by our own government as the actual terrorists. I am saying that as I am not personally in Kandahar holding a weapon I am not going to argue the point with someone who is when they breathe a sigh of relief.

Maximus- yeah, I read about that too. It is interesting to be sure.

Edited by SapereAude
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The Koran should be burned in this case to flaunt the threats of Muslims and the appeasement by governments. As a rule though, I would rather print the Koran and hand out copies to everyone I know because it is the single greatest argument against itself. If I were to burn something, it would be burkas. Burn as many of those as you can track down, and if it draws the militants out where our soldiers can slaughter them, then so much the better, because we are at war after all.

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Excellent. They'll wrap it in an American flag, and burn them together, while chanting that the troops are fags.

And while the Taliban are scratching their heads in dazed confusion over what that means, the US military can sneak up on them and draw a funny mustache on their face. (I was gonna suggest slitting their throats, but that would upset "the world")

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Excellent. They'll wrap it in an American flag, and burn them together, while chanting that the troops are fags.

And while the Taliban are scratching their heads in dazed confusion over what that means, the US military can sneak up on them and draw a funny mustache on their face. (I was gonna suggest slitting their throats, but that would upset "the world")

Funniest damn thing I've seen in awhile. Imma gonna cut and paste that into my next email to my buddy Mike over there. :lol: Thanks.

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