O'ism: There is a finite number of axioms?

[Randrew]

Two quick questions:

1) What is the difference between an Axiomatic Concept and an Axiom? I couldn't find this in ITOE, but maybe I haven't looked closely enough. I would imagine the distinction might go something like: "Axioms" are the statements that express the "Axiomatic Concepts," i.e. how we perceive the concepts.

2) The axiomatic concepts I know of in Objectivism are Existence, Identity (a corollary?), Consciousness, and Volition. Are there any more? More precisely, can there be any more, or is everything else derivative from these and the senses?

(Wait a minute: aren't Identity and Consciousness immediate corollaries of "Existence exists?" But that isn't crucial to my main question, about the finiteness of the set of axioms.)

(I need to buy OPAR so I can reread it. Sorry if the answers to this are obvious.)

[AndrewSternberg]

I'm gonna hijack your thread and ask a related questiong of my own. I'm hoping you don't mind. If you do, I can ask it seperately.

3) Is the following true: In a single act of sense-perception, one has enough data to validate all of the philosophic axioms.

[msb]

There are actually quite a few axioms. Concepts for sensations are axiomatic. "Similar" and "different" are axioms (or perhaps "samness" and "difference", or something along these lines). "Entity" is an axiom. There's the big three and volition, which you mentioned. Here are some I'm less sure of: "quantity" (or maybe "amount"), "quality" (very unsure), and "change" (pretty sure).

[DPW]

3) Is the following true:  In a single act of sense-perception, one has enough data to validate all of the philosophic axioms.

There is a problem with your question. We validate axioms by showing that they are axioms, something we can do only very late in our conceptual development. On the other hand, we acquire axiomatic concepts much earlier, but the only one implicit in a single act of sense-perception is "existence." Later we learn "identity." Only later do we get "consciousness." Etc.

[DPW]

2) The axiomatic concepts I know of in Objectivism are Existence, Identity (a corollary?), Consciousness, and Volition.  Are there any more?  More precisely, can there be any more, or is everything else derivative from these and the senses?

The Objectivist list of axioms / axiomatic concepts isn't intended to be exhaustive.

[AwakeAndFree]

Well, as to the difference:

Axioms are propositions, axiomatic concepts are... concepts.

And no - there is no reason to believe that Ayn Rand's list is exhaustive. In fact, I believe I know at least one other.

[AndrewSternberg]

There is a problem with your question.  We validate axioms by showing that they are axioms, something we can do only very late in our conceptual development.  On the other hand, we acquire axiomatic concepts much earlier, but the only one implicit in a single act of sense-perception is "existence."  Later we learn "identity."  Only later do we get "consciousness."  Etc.

Simple enough, Thanks.

PS: Your blog has mysteriously been inactive, I miss it. You are quite a hilarious individual. Are you working on a new book or some other writing project?

[DPW]

PS: Your blog has mysteriously been inactive, I miss it.  You are quite a hilarious individual.  Are you working on a new book or some other writing project?

Thanks for the kind words. At present, I'm not writing anything, but I will be soon. It might be a return to blogging, but more likely, it will be something that has the potential for making me some money.

[stephen_speicher]

On the other hand, we acquire axiomatic concepts much earlier, but the only one implicit in a single act of sense-perception is "existence."

I am not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that consciousness and identity is not "implicit in a single act of sense-perception?" If so, I think you are mistaken. Identity and consciousness is most certainly implicit in every sensation and percept. How could it be otherwise?

[IdentityCrisis]

Well, as to the difference:

Axioms are propositions, axiomatic concepts are... concepts.

And no - there is no reason to believe that Ayn Rand's list is exhaustive. In fact, I believe I know at least one other.

What would that be?

[DPW]

I am not sure I understand your point here. Are you saying that consciousness and identity is not "implicit in a single act of sense-perception?" If so, I think you are mistaken. Identity and consciousness is most certainly implicit in every sensation and percept. How could it be otherwise?

It depends on what you mean by "implicit." I was discussing implicit knowledge. We don't grasp the concept "identity" even implicitly until we learn to distinguish this existent from that existent. And we don't grasp the concept "consciousness" even implicitly until much later. Implicit knowledge is real, but unconceptualized, knowledge.

Now, in another sense, identity and consciousness are implicit in a single act of sense-perception: they are in the sense that the FACTS that will later become implicit (and hopefully one day explicit) knowledge are present in every act of perception.

[stephen_speicher]

It depends on what you mean by "implicit."  I was discussing implicit knowledge.

I do not see how that changes anything. Implicit knowledge, as presented by Ayn Rand in ITOE, is simply passively held material which has not yet been identified conceptually.

We don't grasp the concept "identity" even implicitly until we learn to distinguish this existent from that existent.  And we don't grasp the concept "consciousness" even implicitly until much later.

Again, I do not see the relevance of the distinction you attempt to make, since the same applies to "existence," just as Ayn Rand notes in ITOE:

"So that, if I say that 'existence' is implicit in the first awareness, I mean the material from which the concept 'existence' will come is present, but the child just learning concepts would not be able to form the concept 'existence' until he has formed a sufficient number of concepts of particular existents."

Miss Rand makes clear that not only "existence," but also "consciousness" and "identity" are "contained in any single state of awareness," and that "the identification, the fully conscious grasp, can be achieved only by a process of abstraction." An implicit concept is a process; it refers to a period of time in which some future concept is being consciously developed, and the implicit concept is contained within that process. In that regard, the same applies to "consciousness" and "identity" as it does to "existence."