Chatting with the mormons

[Lakeside]

This is unedited.

Please continue to hold for the next available missionary.

Agent [Kathryn] is ready to assist you.

Kathryn: hello

Me: Hello

Me: How are you?

Kathryn: How may we help you?

Me: Oh, I'd like to talk about the concept of sacrifice.

Agent [Whitney] has joined the chat.

Kathryn: ?

Me: Sacrifice, the giving of something of value for something that is not desired.

Whitney: ok what has made you intrested in that

Me: What do you mean? There is a lot of talk of sacrifice in The Book of Morman as well as the Bible. What I'd like to talk about is why sacrifice is required.

Kathryn: You have read the book of mormon then?

Me: Why must something that you cherish and value be sacrificed? Why not give up something that isn't valuable.

Me: Parts mostly. I don't understand the talking frog or the stones in the hat deal.

Whitney: we believe in giving our best. To show respect for the lord

Kathryn: There was a friend of mine who just said something about sacrafice that I really liked. "sarifice is giving up something good for something even better.

Kathryn: So for example we can sacrifice our time in school.

Me: but, when sacrifices are made, they are of material things (livestock, produce, children in some cases). As far as material things are concerned, the only value it has is what is bestowed by the person sacrificing.

Whitney: Very ture

Me: Then your friend doesn't know what the word "sacrifice" means

Whitney: by giving our best we show how much the lord means for us, when we do that, he sends us blessing.

Me: but time for school is not a sacrifice to the person who wants to excel. But it is a sacrifice to a person who desires to be a mooching loafer.

Me: Ok, but the lord loves us, yet commands that we sacrifice that which is most desired once it's achieved. I don't understand why.

Kathryn: Have you prayed about it?

Me: I don't pray, per-say

Kathryn: What religious backgrond are you coming from?

Me: Well, my father was raised in SLC (my grandfather opened the first night clubs in utah, they were in park city), my mother is roman catholic, yet my sister and I were raised in a Kingdom Hall. Once I got my license, I attended a Baptist church.

Kathryn: If you would like we can call teach you more about prayer and how to recieve answers? Can we do that for you?

Me: What is call teaching?

Me: you call me?

Kathryn: yes

Kathryn: we can call set up a time and teach you more

Me: teach me more about what?

Kathryn: prayer

Me: But what if it's not prayer I'm after?

Kathryn: and how to recieve answers. Can we do thatfor you?

Me: I'll consider it. But I'm after understanding.

Whitney: well we have to go then, it's been great.

Agent [Whitney] has left the chat.

The chat session has ended.

I'm glad I didn't let them call me.

Edited November 10, 2010 by brian0918

[ToyoHabu]

You are correct, the Mormon idea of sacrifice is not in line with the Objectivists, what those people in the chat room said is what they believe sacrifice to mean, It means to them, to give up something of value for a thing of greater value because God told you to do it. Why God would have to get you to do that is not explained. It all comes down to the hierarchy of values for the Mormon it would look something like this 1. place in afterlife 2. Family 3. Religious community and so on.

an aside

The Mormons are very adept at using new technology to advance their cause. They believe that all advances in science and technology are for the purpose of advancing Gods plan for man.

I was brought up in this religion, but it always clashed with my sense of life. My "conversion" to atheism came to a head when I couldn't hide my disbelief from my parents anymore because I would not go on a mission. I was told go on a mission anyway you will find the spirit there.?! The virtue of integrity is supposed to be held very high by the Mormons, I was very disappointed by this.

[ZSorenson]

Nobody anywhere believes in actual sacrifice.

Instead, religious people believe that real reality, and real identity, are external to the corruptible mortal form - that physicality itself, egoism itself, is a state of separation from God. Thus, material sacrifice has the metaphysical consequence of aligning oneself with the 'whole' their 'real identity'.

Mormonism is a very American, implicitly enlightenment oriented, post enlightenment system. They believe God, and spirit even, have physical substance, thus causing the real world to have actual transcendent meaning.

They have adjusted their concept of sacrifice to be epistemological. You sacrifice certainty, your knowledge, in order to embrace God's knowledge (which is knowable by obedience or intution, not reason primarily). But there are no material sacrifices, unless the context demands it (martyrdom, although physical resurrection is promised, so it isn't the body but certainty that is sacrificed).

Mormons believe that the Old Testament laws were 'lesser laws' for a primitive and less worthy stage of human civilization. Hence material sacrifice is seen as a teaching metaphor, not a metaphysical requirement.

That's just my analysis as a former Mormon.