What Is The Greatest Ancient Civilization?

[Reason Man]

Hi to everybody,

I am new here, and NOT internet savvy (self-info is given under Biography / Intro of my member profile, unable at the moment to upload my photo son being away -- will add it later), but I like this topic a lot. This is a good forum – History and civilizations.

Of the list given, my vote of-course goes to the Greek Civilization – Adherence to a life of reason (to the extent developed till then), and addition to human knowledge are my major criteria. I have seen a lot talked about Chinese and other civilizations – but that many discoveries / inventions over so many thousand or even so many hundred years is not a big thing. Today, many more achievements are made in science within a year! That way ancient India too was far ahead in Algebra (Vedic math, Aurvedic knowledge etc are quite surprising, and Sanskrit is the most “computerizable” language today, except that not many people study it); there was prosperity because of huge trade with the world; highly developed, thousands of year old trading ports were found by the British, which showed all signs of an advanced civilization; there was also some form of democracy, municipalities, aqueducts etc. But nothing of any other civilizations matches with what the Ionians from Thales to Aristotle gave to mankind, and which is not only the source of all of today’s achievements but also all those that will come beyond this point – forever. I don’t believe the Chinese could have reached the kind of “individual freedom” that some of the better-off social strata experience even in India today! And the importance of this I know very well because the whole of my life I have experienced the total opposite due to my social background! Science, developed as a systematic body of knowledge, logically expanded from axiomatic concepts (like Euclid) is Greeks’ contribution to humanity, far superior to any other achievement, and the true mark of a great civilization! (See further arguments about the greatness of Greek Civilization in my posts after this one.)

Further, mere longevity and military looting, with no addition to human knowledge is also not a big thing – by that standard even Dark Ages of Europe will become “civilization” though in fact it was murder of civilization to the extent of Galileo-case though the Greeks knew even the diameter of earth and moon to a surprising level of accuracy because of their trigonometry. (There is a book by (a) British, something like “Mathematics and Western Civilization” by Morris Kline or Morris and Kline, almost half the starting pages of my copy are now lost else I would have given exact details, which gives many Greek achievements.) By this standard some of the Muslims will also classify as “great civilization” just by contrast – for example the thousand years that the Muslims held sway over the world was because the Christian pagans had relegated Aristotle to paganism – and only Muslims knew his philosophy then, but they did not add much!

I believe that there is another very important use of this sub-forum / topic -- The Greeks, and then the Romans were highly advanced in political concepts and structure of governance (definitely compared to their times, and surprisingly to some extent, even compared to ours). It would be quite important to know why they failed – so as to apply to our times. For this I am making another post on this topic, and a bigger article in the “Productivity– Member Writing” sub-forum because of its length, and hoping an enthusiastic response from the participants who have written so much about ancient civilizations. I am trying to show how these civilizations fell when unreason took over reason, and learning the process will help us because today’s western countries are in the same transition stage towards fall due to take-over by unreason.

Please also see my article in the “Productivity – Member Writing” sub-forum, where the greatness of Greek civilization comes out more eloquently.

[Reason Man]

Ten thousand years from now archeologists of a future society will be sifting through our ruins wondering where we lost our way. Empires, societies and cultures seem to have a limited shelf life.

Bob Kolker

The list given by Bob is correct and I can add things like number zero, -ve nos (which represented debt amongst traders) etc, but my interest is in the above quoted para.

As Bob says, civilizations have kept on collapsing; they do have a limited shelf life. In that case I think 10000 years is a very long period, it may happen much sooner, particularly the way America is eroding. But as I see it, the importance of history is that if we study why civilizations collapse and the pattern of their fall, we should be able to increase “the shelf life” of today’s America, when so many knowledgeable people are talking about Ominous Parallels, Dismantling America, military coup to save America, Civil war etc.

That civilizations collapse (have a limited shelf life) is known since very ancient times. Below, see a part of my writing about this.

4. Comments on Quotes about Democracy

Proceeding on the above lines of degeneration of rulers due to mass psychology, some reasons of erosion of American democracy are very nicely explained by the following ancient quote (though the existential situation is almost like small-town, rural India).

QUOTE

i. The characteristic of the democracy is equal freedom and open speech to all, with liberty to each man to shape his own life as he chooses.

ii. …. even horses, asses and dogs go free about, so that they run against you in the road, if you do not make way for them. ……

iii. The subversion of such a democracy arises from men who rise to be popular leaders in it: violent, ambitious, extravagant men who gain the favor of the people by distributing amongst them confiscations from the property of the rich.

iv. The rich, resisting these injustices, become enemies to the constitution.

v. The people, in order to put them down, range themselves under the banners of the most energetic popular leader, who takes advantage of such a position to render himself a despot.

vi. He begins his rule by some acceptable measures, such as abolition of debts, and assignment of lands to the poorer citizens, until he has expelled or destroyed, the parties opposed to him.

vii. He seeks pretences for foreign wars, in order that the people may stand in need of a leader, and may be kept poor by the contributions necessary to sustain war.

viii. But presently he finds, or suspects, dissatisfaction among the more liberal spirits. He kills or banishes them as enemies. UNQUOTE

This is Plato in “The Republic” (380 BC, means he is describing conditions of around 500 – 600 BC!), and the reader will be surprised how much the Republicans and the Democrats are competing to grab power and outdo each other exactly on the above lines. (My explanation about how democracy and multi-culturlism forces them to follow the same path as Greek and Roman democracies is given ahead – and here I think lies the importance of studying history, process of collapse of civilizations at this point in their development, etc.) One may get similar quotes from Roman times.

Amongst America’s founding fathers John Adams predicted: “Remember, democracy never lasts long. It soon wastes, exhausts, and murders itself. There was never a democracy yet that did not commit suicide.”

There is a quote attributed to James Madison about majoritarian tyranny, and commentators have shown how many steps the Founding Fathers had taken against this tyranny. Following quote is attributed to Thomas Jefferson:

“The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who do not.

It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debt as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.

I predict future happiness for Americans if they can prevent the Government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.

My reading of history convinces me that most bad government results from too much government.

To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical.”

Ayn Rand herself referred at several places to fall of America, for example “For the New Intellectual” starts with America being bankrupt and following a suicidal course; The title: The New Left – the Anti-Industrial Revolution is self-explanatory and on page 136 of Second revised edition 1975 she says “you are being pushed into a new Dark Age”, and you may find more such statements, like in the article “From A Symposium”, etc; or the very essence of Atlas Shrugged is the building of a new society out of the collapse of the present one; Anthem starts with a collapsed society, but a then modern one of about 1930s (means too much more developed than Greece) – just read the April 1946 foreword she wrote for it to know what she meant by the world proceeding to collectivism, we have progressed so much towards that world; In several essays in Capitalism the Unknown Ideal, she talks about what type of dictatorship is likely to emerge in America – e.g. the title of article (of 1965): “The New Fascism: Rule by Consensus” is self-explanatory and ends with the type of dictatorship America is heading towards; the article “The Anatomy of Compromise” says, “the ultimate end of altruism will be achieved: universal immolation”; (If I am not wrong, Ominous Parallels was endorsed by her? And today, has the situation deteriorated far beyond?); in the 1971 article “Don’t Let It Go” (from the book Philosophy Who Needs It), she says “If America drags on in her current state (which is unlikely) for a few more generations, dictatorship will become possible.”

The unlikely has become a reality (she was only addressing to better Americans to “Don’t Let It Go”, but) America has dragged on and the speed of getting closer to collapse is now progressively increasing. What was a more distant possibility during her life-time (huge erosion having already happened since 1900) is now a reality – in fact in an article titled “Dismantling America” on the web-site the Atlasphere, dated Oct 27 2009, Thomas Sowell gives a horror-list of government’s atrocities that were not imaginable even one year back!

What matters now is the solution to this decay of democracy, take-over of the political machine by the so-called ‘lower classes’ released because of the efforts of heroes. (More about this aspect of “fall due to decay of democracy” is available in next posts.)

I am stopping here to keep this post limited – but I am posting another article about HISTORY of civilizations in the sub-forum “Productivity – Member Writing” about the greatness of America during the first 150 years of her formation – but which justifies my choice of Greece above. And for further ideas about this role of history, democracy etc in the rise and fall of civilizations please see it by ctrl + clicking on the first link below, which will give an MS word file, therefore more recommended; or by feeding the URL in the second link (this link changes the formatting – but the ideas are in tact).

1. Download link : http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/9b7728a1ee_0.38MB

2. URL: http://wp.me/pguKM-3/ASP Revo Abstract and 3 chapters

These include discussion about moral degeneration and fall due to democracy.

I am thankfully hoping that some members will at least be interested, and make a good discussion out of it.

[Wotan]

Great question! The answer is: Greece -- by a landslide. Glad to see the crowd agrees with me (for once!).

[AmoProbos]

Hmmmm... Who voted for the Mongols? Is this a joke?

Their horseback finesse is unmatched. It is directly from them that we can appreciate that ever-popular sport of killing people while riding a horse. In the face of these lofty masters of all things equestrian, it is obvious that the greatest civilization was, and always will be, the Mongols.

I'm just screwing with you, I voted Greece.

[Robert J. Kolker]

For longevity of culture, the China wins, by far. Their civilization is older than that of Greece and their culture still influences the development of ideas in the East. In addition to which, they invented a lot of the stuff we still use today. For example the magnetic compass, the system of latitude and longitude, the geared clock, base ten numbers (also invented in India) and many other things. See -The Genius of China- by Robert Temple. Their biggest failure was that they did not invent science as we know it. They came close; they had the right empirical approach to figure things out, but they never combined their mathematics with their empiricism, as happened in Europe during the Renaissance.

Bob Kolker

[Robert J. Kolker]

Great question! The answer is: Greece -- by a landslide. Glad to see the crowd agrees with me (for once!).

The failures of Greek culture and civilization are almost as interesting as their successes. In Athens they fell short of developing a full bore empirically based science. The Greek philosophical schools did not develop science along the lines first traced out by the Ionians. In Alexandria, they almost had physics with the work of Archimedes, the greatest thinker of classical times. Alas! He never developed a School to promote his method and the world had to wait 1800 years for the beat to be picked up. The Greeks never quite got motion (dynamics) right, although Archimedes mastered statics (systems of balanced forces). When you look at the near misses of both Greece and China, you have to wonder what the world would have been like, if they had gotten it right Way Back Then.

In any case, Greece left us with a great gift. Greek mathematicians invented the theorem. Deductive Math version 1.0 (Euclid, Eudoxus) and version 1.1 (Archimedes Method) are as good today as they were back then --- well, almost as good.

Bob Kolker

Edited March 12, 2010 by Robert J. Kolker

[Thales]

The failures of Greek culture and civilization are almost as interesting as their successes. In Athens they fell short of developing a full bore empirically based science.

Aristotle did the more essential work, in that he provided the epistemological frame work necessary for science. The idea of hypothesizing and testing by *logic* against the real world, with the real world being the guide to truth was Aristotle's idea, and is the foundation of science. Aristotle did realize the importance of measurement, because he spoke of it. Later, with men like Francis Bacon, more precision was added to the method, and the experimental method added yet another powerful tool, but the essential idea of the scientific method was Aristotle's. The book "Aristotle" by John Herman Randall covers this.

The Greek philosophical schools did not develop science along the lines first traced out by the Ionians. In Alexandria, they almost had physics with the work of Archimedes, the greatest thinker of classical times.

Aristotle was probably the greatest thinker in classical times. Archimedes was one of the most brilliant mathematicians, scientists and engineers of all time, but without the philosophy of Aristotle, we'd have no science, or logic or modern Western culture. You also have Thales, who was the first philosopher, mathematician (QED came from him), and who studied electrostatics and magnetism. To be the first at those things may make him the most impressive mind of the classical period.

[xgenx]

There are some lost civilizations that I wonder about. The Etruscans may have had an enduring effect on Rome. Florence, the capital of Tuscany, formerly Etruria, was the locus of the Italian Renaissance. Just a coincidence? Etruria was paved over by Rome, but we have begun to discover artifacts.

Who created the Antikythera device? What about the Minoans? Who know what wonders still lie under centuries of dust?

But as far as what we know, I would vote for the godfathers of Reason, the Golden Age of Greece.

[VcatoV]

There are some lost civilizations that I wonder about. The Etruscans may have had an enduring effect on Rome. Florence, the capital of Tuscany, formerly Etruria, was the locus of the Italian Renaissance. Just a coincidence?

In some senses yes and no. The Renaissance had little to do with the Etruscans (especially since they did not even really know of them at the time!). As far as we can tell, Etruscan impact upon Roman culture was profound, but not so much in the philosophical sense. From funeral masks to gladiators, from superb metalworking techniques to the design of the Fasces, Rome borrowed her customs extensively. What is interesting and worth pursuing about the Etruscans is their ever-elusive origin. They are the only non-Indo-European civilization in the area...a population island. There has even been some projections, with the scant evidence available, that the Etruscans were in fact from Asia Minor (modern Turkey), thus adding validity to the myths of the foundations of Rome. Neat stuff .

Etruria was paved over by Rome, but we have begun to discover artifacts.

Who created the Antikythera device? What about the Minoans? Who know what wonders still lie under centuries of dust?

There are a whole host of books, ranging from beginner to scholarly, as well as a slew of articles about these subjects. Some of this information is fascinating. For example, the technology (gears/mechanics) of the Antikythera Machine was in wide-spread use at the time. Greek and Roman engineers/scholars were creating miniature plays out of mechanical gears (think those mechanical German clocks with the figurines that do different things...but on a much larger scale). Cicero, in one of his letters, even talks about mechanical globe devices used for astronomy.

Let me know what interests you and I'll try and point you in the right direction .

[liberal]

The Maya should be on the list of choices. And the Aztec and Inca might be due a place as well.

[Cherring109]

Greatest by what standards?

Greatest IN what? AT what?

Ditto that!

[Hotu Matua]

Although I wouldn't have voted for the Mayan over the Greeks, I would have appreciated at least to see my ancestors competing in the list.

Mayan civilization achievements on mathematics, architecture and astronomy dwarf those of Mongols, for example.

In fact, from all the civilizations listed, Mayan were the only one to know the concept of zero and apply it in their arithmetic.

I have seen Mayan scultpures that were close from becoming as esthetical as the Greek.

[liberal]

Although I wouldn't have voted for the Mayan over the Greeks, I would have appreciated at least to see my ancestors competing in the list.

Mayan civilization achievements on mathematics, architecture and astronomy dwarf those of Mongols, for example.

In fact, from all the civilizations listed, Mayan were the only one to know the concept of zero and apply it in their arithmetic.

I have seen Mayan scultpures that were close from becoming as esthetical as the Greek.

Your ancestors were phenomenal:

And speaking of art, it is observable to the expert and layperson alike that Mayan society had a culture where art was primary. Some of the murals that have been discovered are just exquisite.

[liberal]

P.s. I would actually like to offer up the theory that the Mayan use of shadow and sound in their architecture was a first attempt at recording motion and sound. From studying the heavens the Maya saw that the objects that moved in the sky were visuals that repeated themselves. Scultpture and painting could only do so much and, after all, were static and silent representations of the natural world. The Mayan were not satisfied with that. They decided to embed motion and sound into their architecture because they knew their buildings, the sun and people who could clap would be around after they were gone. One can only wonder how much of this "video" and "audio" the mayans embedded into their architecture.

[volco]

Enrique with all due respect I believe it highly unlikely that you have a single traceable drop of Mayan blood.

As far as I know most Mayans are extinct, over-assimilated (not to the conquistadores but to neighboring tribes and civs), or have reverted to a state of affairs lower than the Garifunas.

If you were Guatemalan instead of Mexican I'd be an inch less suspicious.

Been to Yucatan (very different from the rest of Mexico in my opinion), it was incredible.

But Teotihuacan was just as incredible, and there you can fairly claim, some, connection.

Most of us (that is, non endogenous tribes with genetic purity levels as high as the Andamanese Negrito or the Central African Pygmy) do not have any, objective, distinguishable, genetic heritage. (Luigi Luca Cavalli-Sforza, Genes, Peoples and Languages)

[arminius]

I voted for Rome for pretty much the same reasons as Free Capitalist. It should be noted, however, that while the Mongols had savage customs, when it came to laws, they were very advanced for an Asian tribe.

For example, while even in the West you could still be executed for all sorts of ridiculous offenses, and it was even worse in the "civilized" parts of Asia (in China people were beheaded for not bowing properly to a nobleman), the Mongols only had two irrational uses of capital punishment: as punishment for adultery and cattle theft.

Still, quite clearly, the Romans and Greeks are far superior to the Mongols from an Objectivist perspective. Being great at war is not one of the primary traits of a great culture.

Pax Romana. From there ,Il Rinascimento -La Renaissance.

[GoldenSilence33]

I voted for the Persians (or the Achaemenid Empire to be more exact).

They had a uniform monetary system, along with an official language, great infrastructure(postal systems, road systems, way stations), notable architectural achievements such as the city of Persepolis, the Qanat water management system, and the canal connecting Zaqaziq to Suez, along with the one connecting the Mediterranean to the Red Sea.

There was religious freedom, and equal rights for all citizens.

You have to admit, these were great accomplishments for 500 BC.

[volco]

I voted for the Persians (or the Achaemenid Empire to be more exact).

They had a uniform monetary system, along with an official language, great infrastructure(postal systems, road systems, way stations), notable architectural achievements such as the city of Persepolis, the Qanat water management system, and the canal connecting Zaqaziq to Suez, along with the one connecting the Mediterranean to the Red Sea.

There was religious freedom, and equal rights for all citizens.

You have to admit, these were great accomplishments for 500 BC.

Aristotle's pupil would disagree...

[GoldenSilence33]

Aristotle's pupil would disagree...

If you are referring to Alexander the Great, he had great respect for the Persians, even going so far as to wear their garments sometimes.

[volco]

If you are referring to Alexander the Great, he had great respect for the Persians, even going so far as to wear their garments sometimes.

Very good, yes, that was the first case in major recorded history of identification with the aggressor, or foe. Much like (to some extent) in reaction to Islamic fundamentalism, an American ultra Christian movement arose (dubbed maybe incorrectly the American taliban) as American troops flowed into very religious territory; Greeks also guiltily admired and ultimately identified with the culture of their eternal aggressors to the East. That was the birth of the backward, Eastern oriented Hellenic Civilization. So yes, the Barbarian Macedonian who would have wanted to be a Greek, ultimately identified with the Eastern Empires he conquered, dying without even suspecting what he had in his home town back yard.

At the same time, but with no major political importance and historical recording, Greeks were also moving West, to the wild frontiers of the European continent and its outlying big islands, namely Sicily and Southern Italy. New Cities were born, one still exists in agonizing growth, Neapolis, new polis, Naples, Napoli. From that exchange with the local tribal kingdoms of the Samnites, Etruscans, and to some extent Phoenicians (in the form of Carthaginians) and eventually wild Celts, a new civilization was born, one that would not conquer already civilized lands to fight for its loot, but one that would sow the uncivilized extents of Western Europe and Northern Africa with what in time has produced the technology that allow us to communicate this way, and the freedom that allows us to chose its content.

Rome was the greatest ancient civilization. Rome was the investor civilization. Nothing compares to its constructive power until the Discovery of the Americas a millennium later.

[VcatoV]

If you are referring to Alexander the Great, he had great respect for the Persians, even going so far as to wear their garments sometimes.

In actuality, Greece was an Eastern civilization. Most early Greek art was influenced by and learned from Egyptian sources. Similarly, astronomy and mathematics came from Mesopotamia to Greece. It is true that the Greeks took the basis provided and dramatically improved upon them, but nevertheless the Greeks were Eastern. Greek religion was eastern, and Greek fascination with "mystery cults" and other extreme forms of mysticism were Greek responses to Eastern ideas. With the death of Greek culture in the 300s came a resurgence of these Eastern influences.

If one were to look for the first true Western civ, one need look further West...to Italy...

[volco]

In actuality, Greece was an Eastern civilization. Most early Greek art was influenced by and learned from Egyptian sources. Similarly, astronomy and mathematics came from Mesopotamia to Greece. It is true that the Greeks took the basis provided and dramatically improved upon them, but nevertheless the Greeks were Eastern. Greek religion was eastern, and Greek fascination with "mystery cults" and other extreme forms of mysticism were Greek responses to Eastern ideas. With the death of Greek culture in the 300s came a resurgence of these Eastern influences.

If one were to look for the first true Western civ, one need look further West...to Italy...

Amen, fratello,

I guess Greece was as much an Eastern civilization as Egypt and Krete were Western!

It's impossible to mark an east west frontier. The term might come from "Western Christendom" after the schism, or more likely Western v Eastern Roman Empire, the border being the Adriatic (and to this day to the west of that sea lies a prime country and nation, and to the east of it contraband, civil war, and a cycle of conflict, the Balkans.

So since east west borders are not meaningful I see history in trends. From that pov, most of Rome was a westward civilization, much like Spain (Plvs Vltra)

Alexander is, for me, the archetype of Napoleon and Adolf. Born in the west, in a neighboring mark (Macedonian barbarian not Greek, Corsican not French, Austro-Hungarian subect not German) they pushed East as to try to redeem themselves and their national identity by conquering the intimidating asian (or russian) seemingly super civilization, the kind the American founding fathers knew they would best by doing the exact opposite.

interesting how psychological charged longitude is, while how technologically adaptable latitude is. To some ridiculous extents (h.D. Thoreau on the settlement of Australia

[volco]

In actuality, Greece was an Eastern civilization. Most early Greek art was influenced by and learned from Egyptian sources. Similarly, astronomy and mathematics came from Mesopotamia to Greece. It is true that the Greeks took the basis provided and dramatically improved upon them, but nevertheless the Greeks were Eastern. Greek religion was eastern, and Greek fascination with "mystery cults" and other extreme forms of mysticism were Greek responses to Eastern ideas. With the death of Greek culture in the 300s came a resurgence of these Eastern influences.

If one were to look for the first true Western civ, one need look further West...to Italy...

Amen, fratello,

I guess Greece was as much an Eastern civilization as Egypt and Krete were Western!

It's impossible to mark an east west frontier. The term might come from "Western Christendom" after the schism, or more likely Western v Eastern Roman Empire, the border being the Adriatic (and to this day to the west of that sea lies a prime country and nation, and to the east of it contraband, civil war, and a cycle of conflict, the Balkans.

So since east west borders are not meaningful I see history in trends. From that pov, most of Rome was a westward civilization, much like Spain (Plvs Vltra)

Alexander is, for me, the archetype of Napoleon and Adolf. Born in the west, in a neighboring mark (Macedonian barbarian not Greek, Corsican not French, Austro-Hungarian subect not German) they pushed East as to try to redeem themselves and their national identity by conquering the intimidating asian (or russian) seemingly super civilization, the kind the American founding fathers knew they would best by doing the exact opposite.

interesting how psychological charged longitude is, while how technologically adaptable latitude is. To some ridiculous extents (h.D. Thoreau on the settlement of Australia

[volco]

There are some lost civilizations that I wonder about. The Etruscans may have had an enduring effect on Rome. Florence, the capital of Tuscany, formerly Etruria, was the locus of the Italian Renaissance. Just a coincidence? Etruria was paved over by Rome, but we have begun to discover artifacts.

Etruria was paved over by Rome, but the valley of the Tiber, the Lazio, was Southernmost point of Etruscan expansion before Rome.

Just as proper French is the Parisian dialect, or Modern "Francien", proper Italian is the Tuscan dialect, the tongue of Dante, a Florentine.

So maybe you have something there

[Steve D'Ippolito]

And the tangible leavings of Rome continue to crumble, even as we continue to lose the best of the classical culture.

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2011/12/27/romes-colosseum-collapsing-amid-restoration-delays/