Spread Of Islam

[tommyedison]

Both Christianity and Islam started in the Middle East.

Why is it then that Islam had more influence than Christianity in the Middle East and Christianity had more influence than Islam in Europe?

Has it got to do with the difference in the living conditions and geography of the two regions?

[AwakeAndFree]

Christianity may have started in the middle east, but it took it's greatest hold in Rome - after Peter and Paul brought it there. Christianity, at least in it's early days, was pacifistic - and therefore had to spread itself through ideas. Rome was the best place to start.

Islam began in the middle east, and expanded through tribal warfare. It was never a religion of peace, and could never win in a free discussion. The reason is that it is too consistently irrational and altruistic.

That is one of the reasons I believe imposed freedom in Muslim countries MAY indeed curb radical Islam.

[tommyedison]

Christianity may have started in the middle east, but it took it's greatest hold in Rome - after Peter and Paul brought it there. Christianity, at least in it's early days, was pacifistic - and therefore had to spread itself through ideas. Rome was the best place to start.

Islam began in the middle east, and expanded through tribal warfare. It was never a religion of peace, and could never win in a free discussion. The reason is that it is too consistently irrational and altruistic.

That is one of the reasons I believe imposed freedom in Muslim countries MAY indeed curb radical Islam.

That is what I am asking.

Why was Islam accepted by most of the Arabs, not Christianity while it was the vice versa for the Europeans and Romans.

[aSmythe]

Both Christianity and Islam started in the Middle East.

Why is it then that Islam had more influence than Christianity in the Middle East and Christianity had more influence than Islam in Europe?

Something similar happened in Buddhism. It started in India and was adopted by the emperor. It turned the country vegetarian. The Emperor even sent missionaries to China and elsewhere to spread the message. Then Hinduism had a revival in India. I'm fuzzy about the details. Aspects of the Buddhist philosophy remains, but the Hindu rituals came back. Much of the country also remained vegetarian.

Meanwhile, the missionaries who had gone to China and elsewhere seem to have hit pay dirt. I am not sure how that happened.

[BurgessLau]

Both Christianity and Islam started in the Middle East.

This is the kind of puzzle that specialized historians love to debate. I am a perpetual student of history, but I am not a specialist in this field.

However, I can point out a few elements you might not have considered yet. These are only a few pieces of the puzzle. I don't have a full answer to your question.

First, "Middle East" is a very broad idea -- too broad. For example, keep in mind that Christianity arose in the Palestine area, an area heavily influenced by Jews (but also pagans), some of whom had been partly Hellenized -- that is, influenced in some ways by Greek culture. For example, Philo (of nearby Alexandria), a Jew writing in Greek, was trying to introduce Plato's philosophy into his culture at the same time Christ lived.

Though Philo didn't have much effect on Jews he did affect the early Christian intellectuals, such as Justin Martyr (lived c. 100 - c. 163 CE). Besides, Justin had been a Platonizing pagan before converting to Christianity. The point is that through such channels Greek culture quickly had some effect on Christianity (in some of its early forms).

In the 600s, Islam arose in a very different situation. The Arabian peninsula had a culture based on a very primitive paganism, a paganism not influenced by Greek or Roman culture. Eventually (c. 800-c. 1000), Hellenistic culture did affect some forms of Islamic theology and lesser culture, but in the long run (by c. 1100 CE) the advocates of those forms lost to the Traditionalists who fought against the "foreign sciences" (including philosophy).

Also, keep in mind that Christians were still trying to squash some forms of paganism in Europe as late as the 800s, at least.

Further note that Islam dominated formerly Christian Spain (Al-Andalusia) for several hundred years (roughly 800-1100 CE), a period when Islamic culture was the most advanced in the world (because at that time, leading Muslim intellectuals were immersed in Greek culture).

I suspect that the key to part of your question-- Why did Islam rather than Christianity finally dominate the Middle East? -- can be explained by the relative dominance of "passivism" and pacificism in eastern Christianity and the relative dominance of militarism in the initial Arabian waves of conquest. Often, as we see today, many Muslims are "passivists" as well as in fact pacifists (though they acquiesce in violence by fundamentalists).

Despite the terrorism of fundamentalists today, Islam's current encroachment on Western Civilization is made possible mainly through mass immigration and through defenselessness brought on by multiculturalist ideals of "Western" intellectuals.

[White Eurocentric Male]

Very fast christianity became burdened by internal conflicts. There are a lot of doctrinal points to disagree in christianity. At the moment of Islam's rise, christians where fighting among themselves and there was only one kind of Islam, because Mohammed was still alive.

All wars by the Arabs weren't about religion. A lot of them where about taking control of trade routes. The best known route is the silk road. Islam travelled along with the caravans on this road.

People being sick and tired of the old oppressor and his religion and hoping they will have a better life embracing the religion of the new oppressor.

[Alon]

Everyone who answered tommyedison's question forgot to mention one very important point: Christianity did have a heavy influence on the Middle East, and was extremely succesful in that area!

Don't forget that the Roman Empire encompassed the whole of North Africa, Egypt, Palestine, Arabia, Syria, at some points Mesopotamia, Turkey, and Armenia. All those territories were thoroughly Christian, and Alexandria (in Egypt) and Antioch (in Syria) were bastions of Christian theology. Those territories remained Christian until the arrival of Islam in the late 600's AD. By that time the Eastern Roman Empire was very weak - after constant warfare with the Goths to the North and Parthians to the East - that it was not able to meet the Muslim threat from the South.

Islam spread extremely quickly and by the 1200's reached Anatolia, the last remains of the Eastern Roman Empire. In 1453 Constantinople fell to the Turks and the Patriarch of the Orthodox Church fled and established his seat in, I believe, Moscow.

Thus in the span of a century countless Christians were forcibly converted to Islam from Mesopotamia through North Africa and to Spain. Remnants of Middle East Christianity exist today in the form of the Coptic Church in Egypt, the Syrian Church which is under the jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome, and the Armenian Church. I believe there is also a sect of Iraqi Christians known as Chaldeans.

On an unrelated note, I often hear Muslims make the claim that the conflict between East and West dates back to the Crusades. The claim is utter tripe for the above reason. At Islam's inception it spread over previously Christian territories and encircled Christendom.

[Zoso]

imposed freedom

I know what you mean, but this little phrase still made me laugh.

[Charles]

Well according to its own sources (quaran etc) Islam spread through the middle east via military campaign under the Emperor, Mohammed. In fact, thats why the Jews lost so much territory. The Christians got into Europe when Roman Emperor Constantine adopted it as the state religion. Really an ingenious way to keep control of the people, in the face of a popular pacifism. At that time I would suggest religion really was the opiate of the people.

[Alon]

Charles,

I'm sorry I didnt respond earlier, I didn't notice anyone added to this thread. I haven't read the Qu'ran, but does it acknowledge that the lands of Islam (in North Africa and the Middle East) were conquered from Byzantium?

What exactly does it say about Jewish territory? I know of no independent Jewish state at that time. Judea was free untill 66 BC when Pompey the Great conquered it.

[Gentole]

"La ikraha fid din", the Koran says. (There's no coercion in religion)

Let's see what history tells us...

There are facts telling us that Islam was spread peacefully through area which was dominated established religions such as Christianity and Buddhism, not by sword but by "dakwah". You can read T.W. Arnold's "The Spread of Islam" or Marshall G. Hodgson's "The Venture of Islam" to get a clearer insight for the statement.

I tell you a story of the Islamization in Southeast Asia, specifically Indonesia as largest moslem country in the world.

The indigenous religion of the Indonesian people is animism and, to some extent, dynamism. In the fourth century, the Indian spread Hindu-Buddhist teachings and then build Hindu-Buddhist kingdoms such as Tarumanegara and Majapahit.

Islam was firstly spread in 14th CE. There are two agent of Islamization in Southeast Asia, one is traders and the other one is Sufis (Islamic saints). No Osama bin Laden! You can read Anthony Reid's books or Azyumardi Azra's doctoral dissertation from Columbia University. Should I send you articles on the spread of Islam, written not only by Europeans but also by the Arabs?

I tell you, there are no facts that Islam was spread by sword in Indonesia. If it does exist, then it doesn't mean that Islam is never a religion of peace.

Your questions:

Why is it then that Islam had more influence than Christianity in the Middle East and Christianity had more influence than Islam in Europe?

We have to learn carefully the basic tenets and the subtanstials teaching of Islam and Christianity. And, of course, it takes more than one short writing to do that. My conclusion is the two are alike. Islam and Christiniaty is both scripture religion. The two originate from the same source, Abraham.

The word "Assalamualaikum" means "peace be upon you". So? I'm a moslem and i never kill! As it is forbidden. Hell is the reward for killing others without justified reason. Islam is irrational? All religions are irrational. Marx, Heidegger, Sartre and Camus said that!

It's just a matter of historical coincidence. That's the answer why Christianity had more influence in Europe. And what is history in a broader sense? Politics! Like all established religion, including Islam, the spread of Christianity in Europe has was always basically political. The church used Roman political power to spread their teaching. And it happened that by the time Islam was about to reach Spain, France and Russia the pendulum of civilization moved to the West. And the moslems lost the war. I do believe that the age of reason, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment are decisive events in history, not only in Europe but in the World also. Read Bernard Lewis' works? Maxime Rodinson's "Europe and the Mystique of Islam"? Edward Said's "Orientalism"?

(Edited to retain comments about Islam while removing inflammatory ones about Objectivism. The original text has been moved elsewhere. The author has been informed. softwareNerd)

Edited April 19, 2005 by softwareNerd

[A.A]

It's just a matter of historical coincidence. That's the answer why Christianity had more influence in Europe. And what is history in a broader sense? Politics! Like all established religion, including Islam, the spread of Christianity in Europe has was always basically political. The church used Roman political power to spread their teaching. And it happened that by the time Islam was about to reach Spain, France and Russia the pendulum of civilization moved to the West. And the moslems lost the war. I do believe that the age of reason, the Renaissance and the Enlightenment are decisive events in history, not only in Europe but in the World also. Read Bernard Lewis' works? Maxime Rodinson's "Europe and the Mystique of Islam"? Edward Said's "Orientalism"?

[...]

Is there anybody who reads Hegel here? Or Kant? Or St. Augustin? Or Ibnu Khaldun? Or Jacques Derrida?

[...]

Ayn Rand's Objectivism is obviously an illusion. She was beautiful, but still Objectivism is not a philosophy. It's a movement, like Marxism or Existentialism. There are too many presuppositions (especially metaphysic) here untested and unphilosophized. There are so many phisophical issues that are missed here. And I think, this forum is not the place to discuss freely several issues regarding objectivism. The topic is worth discussing but the point of views are so narrow.

Since you did not know who Ayn Rand was until yesterday (including if she was a man or a woman), I just wanted to inform you that apart from the fiction books she had written (notably The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged), she wrote several non-fiction philosophy books, in which she addressed many points raised in your post, including some (or all?) of the philosophers that you mentioned. Just to let you know.

[punk]

Islamic culture had a much higher impact on Europe than most westerners like to admit.

The reemergence of classical culture in the West came from Latin translations of Arabic translations of the Greeks made by by Christians in Muslim Spain.

Arguably the reemergence of Greek philosophy that lead to Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, et. al. started in the 900's in the Muslim world with Alfarabi (known in the Middle Ages as the "Second Teacher", Aristotle being the first), Averroes, Avicenna, Maimonides. In fact when it started reaching Europe it was dismissed by many as being Arab and Muslim thought.

Medieval poetry which traces back to the Troubadours traces back from them to Arabic poetry as well. So European ideas of courtly love and chivalry go back to Muslim and Arabic ideas.

Essentially those things that went forward to the Renaissance and the Enlightment got to Europe from the Muslim world.

[softwareNerd]

Punk:

Forum member, Burgess Laughlin, has a book on the subject, titled "The Aristotle Adventure".

[punk]

I left out the various mathematical works the West got from the Muslim world which ended up giving us words like "algorithm", "algebra", as well as other scientific works.

Essentially the "Dark Ages" were only a northern European phenomenon.

[Gentole]

Islamic culture had a much higher impact on Europe than most westerners like to admit.

The reemergence of classical culture in the West came from Latin translations of Arabic translations of the Greeks made by by Christians in Muslim Spain.

Arguably the reemergence of Greek philosophy that lead to Thomas Aquinas, Duns Scotus, et. al. started in the 900's in the Muslim world with Alfarabi (known in the Middle Ages as the "Second Teacher", Aristotle being the first), Averroes, Avicenna, Maimonides.  In fact when it started reaching Europe it was dismissed by many as being Arab and Muslim thought.

Medieval poetry which traces back to the Troubadours traces back from them to Arabic poetry as well.  So European ideas of courtly love and chivalry go back to Muslim and Arabic ideas.

Essentially those things that went forward to the Renaissance and the Enlightment got to Europe from the Muslim world.

Islam is essentially part of the West, since some of it's basic teachings were once developed by early Islamic thinkers (ulama) influenced by the Greek civilization that also had so much influence in the development of the Western Civilization. Not only Al-Farabi, Avicenna and Averroes (Maimonides was jewish?), but also Al-Ghazali and Ibnu Taymiyah, the most prominent and influencing thinker in Sunny's world, were influenced by Greek philosophers. That's why I never see Islam and Christianity as different. So, the problem is not what Islam is or what Christianity is, but what happened in the past that had made one have more influence in one particular place than the other.

Here's my new answer to tommyedison's question; Religion is a cultural phenomenon. It can be modified according to it's adherent's cultural predisposition,. that's why there are so many islams (not Islam). And I say, Islam, like Christianity, can also be well developed in the West. Why? In my view, Islam doesn't contradict with rationality (thought it might be irrational) and pays a great respect to the liberty of individuals (though, still, Islam is altruistic).

In the second century of Hegira (7-8th CE), Islam was facing a tremendous "fitnah" (test). Islam was no longer unified by the Qur'an and the faith in one God. Caliph Uthman was killed by a Moslem fanatic, and so was Caliph Ali. It was chaotic at the time. Islam was facing it's historical destiny, schism and fragmentation. Because of the schism and fragmentation the moslems were trying to find another way to the truth besides the Qur'an. And one Islamic thinker, i forgot his name, found a new method to guide their faith;reasoning. He called himself Munta'zilah. He held that reason is the only way to comprehend the exisntence of God. That's why, they are also called the Rationalist. The had a great impact in the making of Islamic theology, as it opposed the mainstream of Islamic theology as understood and developed since the time of the prophet.

So, I can't explain this shortly. Mmmm...If there were no Crusades, If Andualusia didn't fall in 1492, if the Turkish Sultan didn't have too much harems, and so on, then Islam would occupy half of Europe.

As I recall from my reading, Algorithm derives from the name of an Islamic thinker Al-Khawrizmi and Algebra is a corrupted spelling of the word "Al-Jabbar" (one of God's beautiful names in Islam).

(I have ordered Ayn Rand's book; The Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged. It may take two weeks for the shipping)