Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Iowa Caucus Focus Group Agrees: Obama is a Muslim

Rate this topic


CapitalistSwine
 Share

Recommended Posts

I am going to assume people here in the United States understand the importance of Iowa when it comes to national politics. For those that don't understand, read this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iowa_caucuses particularly the 2nd paragraph.

Well...look at this, this is of particular embarrassment to me as I currently live in Iowa:

Edited by CapitalistSwine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Whilst a shockingly high number (around half?) felt he is a Muslim, they did not all accept that ludicrous notion - several stated his 'religion' as liberalism which is much closer to the mark. It is scary that these people have the vote though, particularly in an important primary (I still don't think it is as vital as it is made out to be by the media).

It is concerning that so many people hold this bizarre idea, what are the causes of this?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It might be a combination of his middle name (Hussein), being raised in an Islamic country (and going to their schools for a number of years), and the habit he apparently has of bowing before leaders of Islamic countries even though he himself is by all protocol their equal as president of the United States.

I think it is plausible that he is secretly Muslim, but quite unlikely. He is certainly not a Christian in any but the gooey-est sense of the term. I find it more plausible that he was a full-blown Marxist (not engaging in hyperbole here) in college and still has some of those radical tendencies--or might still be a Marxist and have learned to hide it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

He is most certainly closer to that of a social-democrat than a Marxist. As far as to what intensity his views are within that respect, that is something that could be debated all day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

Given his life background, schooling, location, family and otherwise I believe he is either a Christian or, and I have been considering this to be more likely as time goes on, but I am not sure I am willing to commit to the idea...a closet agnostic.

One of quite a few reasons I believe this might be the case is that he has a good number of instances where he has been caught doing things of this nature (Ignore the idiot in the voiceover):

There is just far too many things I would have to ignore to come to the conclusion he is a closet Muslim. Even given the above video I think due to his background and what I have read on it, as well as his church attendance and many other factors he is still more likely to be a Christian than a Muslim. I believe the bowing to Islamic leaders is more due to the culture and location in which he grew up for some time.

Edited by CapitalistSwine
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I believe the bowing to Islamic leaders is more due to the culture and location in which he grew up for some time.

If Obama grew up in a Muslim environment and still has so much reverence for Islam, then why didn't he become a Muslim? Considering how intolerant Islam is to nonbelievers, I imagine it would have taken tremendous courage for someone like Obama to choose a different religion. Usually, this courage comes from a strong dislike of said religion/evil ideology. Hence, those who are raised under an evil ideology as a child either become devout followers or harsh critics. Consider how one of statism's strongest supporters, George Soros, and harshest critic, Ayn Rand, both grew up in statist countries. In all likelihood, Obama is either lying about his respect for Islam or is lying about his Christian faith.

As for the notion that believing Obama is a Muslim is ridiculous, it should be noted that there is a difference between believing Obama is a Muslim and having a reasonable suspicion that Obama is a Muslim. After all, the only way to know for sure what Obama's beliefs are is to read his mind which is impossible.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Obama grew up in a Muslim environment

He didn't grow up in a Muslim environment. He grew up in Hawaii, with the exception of four years he spent in Jakarta, between the ages 6 and 10. While in Jakarta, he went to a secular public school and to Catholic School.

As for the notion that believing Obama is a Muslim is ridiculous, it should be noted that there is a difference between believing Obama is a Muslim and having a reasonable suspicion that Obama is a Muslim. After all, the only way to know for sure what Obama's beliefs are is to read his mind which is impossible.

By that logic, there's a reasonable suspicion Ayn Rand was also a Muslim. Not to mention the Pope. Always knew there was something wrong about him. And your family: as far as you know, you could be surrounded by Muslims right now. Ruuuuun.

Edited by Tanaka
Link to comment
Share on other sites

He didn't grow up in a Muslim environment. He grew up in Hawaii, with the exception of four years he spent in Jakarta, between the ages 6 and 10. While in Jakarta, he went to a secular public school and to Catholic School.

Four years is an eternity to a 6-year-old. I read a long time ago that psychologists believe a person's basic personality is determined by the age of eight. Perhaps the consensus has changed since then. Regardless, any culture/religion is going to have a huge influence (positive or negative) if you're exposed to it that young.

I myself remember being very religious as a child right up until the point I was baptized at age ten. The priest insisted that I take private lessons about Catholicism several times a week for a few weeks before being baptized. Most people don't have that kind of direct exposure to a religion at a young age and can afford to sit on the fence and be "Christian in name only." I on the other hand, after learning what Catholicism is really about, was forced to make a decision and I wholeheartedly rejected it. If someone today were to accuse me of being a stealth Catholic based on my early exposure to it, I would deny it just as Obama has denied being a stealth Muslim. But more importantly, I would explain WHY I am not a Catholic and what I find wrong about it and religion in general.

Obama is basically in the same position. He was exposed to Islam while in Indonesia and at school at an early age, which he often brags about. And yet, he never explains why he never chose that religion despite it having a huge influence on his life. Instead, he has nothing but praise and adulation for it. Perhaps this is just political correctness and evasion. Either way though, it seems he is being dishonest.

By that logic, there's a reasonable suspicion Ayn Rand was also a Muslim. Not to mention the Pope. Always knew there was something wrong about him. And your family: as far as you know, you could be surrounded by Muslims right now. Ruuuuun.

Did Ayn Rand or the Pope have a Muslim name, have both a Muslim father and Muslim stepfather, and were registered as a Muslim in school? Again, that's not enough to prove Obama was a Muslim, but it's enough to raise suspicion. It's not like assertions that Obama is a Muslim are being pulled out of thin air.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obama is basically in the same position. He was exposed to Islam while in Indonesia and at school at an early age, which he often brags about. And yet, he never explains why he never chose that religion despite it having a huge influence on his life. Instead, he has nothing but praise and adulation for it. Perhaps this is just political correctness and evasion. Either way though, it seems he is being dishonest.

Of course it's just political correctness. He's a politician. He's not going to launch into a tirade about why he left Islam just to try to convince some extreme right-wingers who are never going to support anything he does anyways. This whole "he's secretly a Muslim" thing strikes me as pure paranoia.

Did Ayn Rand or the Pope have a Muslim name, have both a Muslim father and Muslim stepfather, and were registered as a Muslim in school? Again, that's not enough to prove Obama was a Muslim, but it's enough to raise suspicion.

Straight out of the "I'm just asking questions" Glenn Beck school of reasoning, eh?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This whole "he's secretly a Muslim" thing strikes me as pure paranoia.

I'm not trying to convince anyone that Obama is a Muslim. What I am saying though is that it is irrational to label those who speculate about Obama's religion as "paranoid extremists." This is the same kind of rhetoric that Rand warned about in "Extremism," or The Art of Smearing." Besides, is it really paranoid to suspect that Obama might be a Muslim since Islam permits its followers to conceal their faith?

Straight out of the "I'm just asking questions" Glenn Beck school of reasoning, eh?

So we're not allowed to ask questions. That's very intellectual. <_<

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I am saying though is that it is irrational to label those who speculate about Obama's religion as "paranoid extremists." This is the same kind of rhetoric that Rand warned about in "Extremism," or The Art of Smearing."

The labels "paranoid" and "extremist" are completely unrelated, and you'll noticed that I only used the former in describing this belief, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by quoting Rand's Extremism article. My use of extreme was in a completely different context, to indicate not a falsity of beliefs but rather the unlikelihood that Obama would have anything to gain politically by appealing to them in some way.

So we're not allowed to ask questions. That's very intellectual. <_<

Yeah, 'cause that's exactly what I was saying....

Here's what I'm actually saying. This "I'm just asking questions" mode of argument isn't actually about asking questions at all. Rather, it's a mode of argument in which one never actually makes any solid claims, so that no one else can actually refute any of it. Instead, one simply casts doubt or raises suspicion. One thus adopts a faux-impartiality - oh, I'm not saying we know Obama is a Muslim, but it's suspicious, isn't it?... The goal is not to actually resolve these questions, or to pursue these suspicions further to find an answer, but rather to place the issue in some nebulous middle ground which casts doubt on everything, and keep it there for the forseeable future. That's Glenn Beck's methodology of "just asking questions," and your method of argumentation is strongly reminiscent of it. Citing Taqiyya certainly falls under this category of casting unreasonable doubt; Muslims are allowed to lie to non-believers, so Obama is suspect? Denying that one is a Muslim constitutes evidence that one might be a Muslim? How much more unreasonable could doubt get?

Edited by Dante
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The labels "paranoid" and "extremist" are completely unrelated, and you'll noticed that I only used the former in describing this belief, so I'm not sure what you're trying to accomplish by quoting Rand's Extremism article.

I was basically paraphrasing the attitude expressed by most of the posters on this topic. Some of the words used to describe the belief that Obama is a Muslim were "bizarre", "ridiculous", "ludicrous", "extremist", etc. These terms imply that those who believe Obama is a Muslim or suspect he is are part of a fringe element and should not be listened to. This stifles debate, which is what Rand was talking about in her article.

Here's what I'm actually saying. This "I'm just asking questions" mode of argument isn't actually about asking questions at all. Rather, it's a mode of argument in which one never actually makes any solid claims, so that no one else can actually refute any of it.

It's important to note that we're not talking about a physical event or scientific phenomena, which can be proven or refuted with physical evidence. We're talking about a person's beliefs, in this case, Obama's religious beliefs, which you can't make a solid claim on without reading that person's mind. Just look on this forum alone, where some people claim Obama is a communist while others claim he is a fascist. Again, it's impossible to know for sure without reading his mind. Sure, you could say that his policies are fascist since he's not really taking over the private sector, but heavily regulating it. But you could also say that's merely a stepping stone for an ultimate takeover i.e. communism. Or, you could say that he's not really a communist or fascist, but just power hungry and is doing whatever is politically expedient at the moment.

You're presenting a false dichotomy: I should make a solid claim that he's either a Muslim or not a Muslim. If there's evidence that suggests Obama is a Muslim, but doesn't definitively prove his Muslim, should we not discuss the possibility of him being Muslim?

Citing Taqiyya certainly falls under this category of casting unreasonable doubt; Muslims are allowed to lie to non-believers, so Obama is suspect?

That's not what I'm saying at all. I was saying that it's possible for Obama to lie about his faith if he is indeed a Muslim. I've heard many pundits say that Obama can't be a Muslim because he says he is a Christian as if to imply that it's impossible for a Muslim to lie about their faith. It sounded like you were exhibiting this attitude when you said the idea of him being a secret Muslim was paranoia since paranoia is an irrational fear.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His purported father was a muslim from Kenyan.

His parents gave him two muslim names, Barack and Hussein.

His adopted father was a muslim from Indonesia, and listed his (Obama's) religion as "islam" in his enrollment paperwork.

He "accidentally" referred to "my muslim faith" in an interview with George Snuffle-up-a-gus.

When he attended Columbia, he was roomed with Muslim foreign exchange students. Are Americans typically roomed with foreign exchange students? Are Christians typically roomed with muslims? This is evidence that he attended as an Indonesian muslim, under his legal name Barack Soetoro (Simple as pie to disprove, if only someone could get a look at this college transcripts).

The pastor of the only Christian church Obama is known to have attended, Jeremiah Wright, is a good friend of Louis Farrakhan, the leader of the Nation of Islam, and teaches a brand of Christianity barely recognizable as such. There is reason to believe that Obama attended only to gain cred in Chicago so he could run for office.

But - no way is he a muslim!!!

Given the lack of documentary evidence on this guy's early life, is it any wonder that people believe all manner of things about him?

And - what, exactly, would be so bad about him being a muslim in the first place?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

So we're not allowed to ask questions. That's very intellectual.

Asking a question that's been answered or has a readily available answer is actually a statement, not a question. In this case, your question states that our previous answers are wrong, and that there is reason to believe Obama is a Muslim.

But you evade the need to justify your statement, by pretending it's just a question. This is the same exact technique all the other irrational conspiracy theorists use. If you stick to it, it will lead you to an amazing level of irrationality.

You need to acknowledge the fact that you adopted a position in this thread. Then you need to state that position clearly to yourself, and figure out if it's correct or not. Stop asking questions, start thinking properly instead.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And - what, exactly, would be so bad about him being a muslim in the first place?

Good point. I can think of a lot worse things to accuse Obama of. On this forum and elsewhere, Obama has been called a communist, fascist, socialist, Marxist, and even a nihilist. Call him a Muslim, however, and people start to get real touchy.

But you evade the need to justify your statement, by pretending it's just a question. This is the same exact technique all the other irrational conspiracy theorists use. If you stick to it, it will lead you to an amazing level of irrationality.

Classic straw man argument. Imply that my question, "Isn't it reasonable to suspect that Obama may be a Muslim?", is really a statement, "Obama is definitely a Muslim", and then attack the statement.

What I'm doing is no different than when Capitalistswine suggested that Obama might be a closet agnostic. There are compelling arguments to be made on both sides, but when you start comparing the other side to "conspiracy theorists", you are using the argument from intimidation.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His purported father was a muslim from Kenyan.

His parents gave him two muslim names, Barack and Hussein.

His adopted father was a muslim from Indonesia, and listed his (Obama's) religion as "islam" in his enrollment paperwork.

This is a bit of an oversimplification:

"Obama Sr. was born in Rachuonyo District[1] on the shores of Lake Victoria just outside Kendu Bay, Kenya Colony, at the time a colony of the British Empire. He was raised in the village of Nyang’oma Kogelo, Siaya District, Nyanza Province.[12] His family are members of the Luo ethnic group.

His father was Hussein Onyango Obama (c. 1895-1979) and his mother was Habiba Akumu Nyanjango of Karabondi, Kenya, Onyango's second wife. However, Obama Sr. was raised by his stepmother, Sarah Ogwel of Kogelo, after Akumu left her family and separated from her husband in 1945.[3][13] Before working as a cook for missionaries in Nairobi, Obama Sr.'s father Onyango had travelled widely, enlisting in the British colonial forces and visiting Europe, India, and Zanzibar, where he converted from Roman Catholicism to Islam and took the name Hussein. Hussein Onyango was jailed by the British for six months in 1949 due to his involvement in the Kenyan independence movement. According to Sarah Onyango Obama, Onyango was subjected to brutal torture which caused permanent physical disabilities.[14]

Obama Sr. was born into this Muslim and Christian family,[15] but he became an atheist as a young man, before meeting Ann Dunham."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barack_Obama,_Sr.

And - what, exactly, would be so bad about him being a muslim in the first place?

This is a very good point. I care not what his beliefs are so much as his actions. So far it does not seem he has acted on his potentially Muslim beliefs in any substantial way.

But - no way is he a muslim!!!

We are asked to believe that Barack Obama, who for over 20 years has professed to be a practicing Christian and has spoken publicly of his "personal relationship with Jesus Christ," is in fact secretly a Muslim and has lied all along about his true religious affiliation. If this is the case, he has done a spectacular job of it.

No proof is offered by those who make these claims — no sightings of Obama attending a mosque, no pictures of him reading the Koran, praying to Mecca, or observing Islamic holidays with his family. The entire case, such as it is, rests on a confused and error-ridden recitation of Obama's upbringing and purported childhood influences.

Virtually everything we do know about Obama's parentage and upbringing, it should be stipulated, comes from the Senator himself. Obama told the story of his search to uncover his African heritage in Dreams from My Father, shared further autobiographical details in The Audacity of Hope, and spoke at length about his Christian faith in a 2004 Chicago Sun Times interview with Cathleen Falsani. At no time has he evinced a belief in or commitment to any other religion but Christianity, unless you believe a mistaken utterance is substantive. In the absence of contrary evidence, we have no reason to doubt Obama's candid account of his own religious journey.

Though Barack Hussein Obama, Sr. was raised a Muslim, he had lost his faith and become a "confirmed atheist" by the time he attended college, according to his son. Obama's parents separated when Barack was two, his father moving not to Jakarta, but to the United States, where he attended Harvard. Eventually he returned to Kenya.

When Obama's mother remarried, it was indeed to an Indonesian man named Lolo Soetoro, whom his stepson describes as a "non-practicing" Muslim. But it was his "secular" mother who supervised his education, Obama has written, sending him to both Catholic and Muslim primary schools after the family moved to Jakarta. There is nothing on record to indicate Obama attended a madrassa (Muslim religious school) run by Wahhabists, and in any case it's unlikely his mother would have chosen to expose him to such an extreme form of Islam given her stated abhorrence of religious closed-mindedness and her stated goal of giving him a well-rounded education, including in matters of faith.

CNN has tracked down the school in question, the Basuki School in Jakarta, which a deputy headmaster described as a "public school" with no particular religious agenda. "In our daily lives, we try to respect religion, but we don't give preferential treatment," he told CNN. A classmate of Obama's described the school as "general," with students of many religious backgrounds attending. Obama entered the school at the age of 8 and attended for two years

Unless I missed it while skimming Obama's two books and sundry news interviews, the senator has never mentioned, let alone "admitted," being a Muslim at any point in his life. Yes, he lived in a Muslim country during part of his childhood, but there's no evidence he was raised in the Muslim faith, nor has he ever been, so far as I've been able to determine, a practitioner of Islam.

That anyone, let alone a sitting U.S. senator with designs on the highest office in the land, would conceal being a Muslim for twenty-odd years while going through the outward motions of practicing Christianity (or vice-versa, for that matter) is a bizarre accusation. I'd be tempted to dismiss it as paranoid lunacy.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I know this is kind of unrelated to his alleged Islamic-related history and whatever his religion is, but since it was posted by the OP, it is kind of relevant to the history of the President, which I do believe at the least we can say is far, far, too oft-neglected.

He is most certainly closer to that of a social-democrat than a Marxist. As far as to what intensity his views are within that respect, that is something that could be debated all day.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_democracy

According to a recent article by someone who knew him, this is the case.

http://www.americanthinker.com/2011/02/meeting_young_obama.html

Whatever impact our encounter might have had on him, I know something about what Barack Obama believed in 1980. At that time, the future president was a doctrinaire Marxist revolutionary, although perhaps -- for the first time -- considering conventional politics as a more practical road to socialism.

Of course, if this is true, it does not mean he is unworthy of the epithet "Marxist."

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Given his life background, schooling, location, family and otherwise I believe he is either a Christian or, and I have been considering this to be more likely as time goes on, but I am not sure I am willing to commit to the idea...a closet agnostic.

That anyone, let alone a sitting U.S. senator with designs on the highest office in the land, would conceal being a Muslim for twenty-odd years while going through the outward motions of practicing Christianity (or vice-versa, for that matter) is a bizarre accusation. I'd be tempted to dismiss it as paranoid lunacy.

So it's okay to suggest that Obama could be a closet agnostic, but suggesting that Obama could be a closet Muslim is "bizarre" and "paranoid"?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What I'm doing is no different than when Capitalistswine suggested that Obama might be a closet agnostic. There are compelling arguments to be made on both sides

You haven't made any compelling arguments. You said that we can't know what he believes because we can't read his mind, and when I refuted that argument you started pretending you aren't arguing, only asking questions.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You haven't made any compelling arguments.

My argument is that people aren't crazy for thinking that Obama could be a Muslim. I say this in response to the posters who think such claims are "bizarre", "ludicrous", "paranoid", etc. I could understand this reaction if people were suggesting that Obama was a satanist, for example. Now that would be a bizarre claim since there's no evidence for it.

You said that we can't know what he believes because we can't read his mind...

That's right, we can't read his mind. There's always a probability that a person could be a closet Muslim, agnostic, Christian, satanist, or what have you; but in most cases the probability is so small due to a lack of evidence that it's not worth discussing. Doing so would risk trying to prove a negative. But the claim that Obama could be a Muslim is worth discussing because there is evidence for it. As I said before, calling people on either side crazy only stifles the debate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

My argument is that people aren't crazy for thinking that Obama could be a Muslim. I say this in response to the posters who think such claims are "bizarre", "ludicrous", "paranoid", etc. I could understand this reaction if people were suggesting that Obama was a satanist, for example. Now that would be a bizarre claim since there's no evidence for it.

It would be no more bizarre than claiming he is a Muslim. People probably know even less about Satanism, which is why it would probably seem to be even more bizarre. Circumstantial evidence is hardly good enough.

"Did Ayn Rand or the Pope have a Muslim name, have both a Muslim father and Muslim stepfather, and were registered as a Muslim in school? Again, that's not enough to prove Obama was a Muslim, but it's enough to raise suspicion."

Is an example of meaningless evidence. Being registered at a Muslim schools means nothing other than maybe it was the best school in the area he lived. Your question does not raise any suspicion for me. For any person's beliefs, you can only judge what they say and do.

Edited by Eiuol
Link to comment
Share on other sites

That's right, we can't read his mind. There's always a probability that a person could be a closet Muslim, agnostic, Christian, satanist, or what have you; but in most cases the probability is so small due to a lack of evidence that it's not worth discussing. Doing so would risk trying to prove a negative. But the claim that Obama could be a Muslim is worth discussing because there is evidence for it. As I said before, calling people on either side crazy only stifles the debate.

Calling people on the other side irrational (not crazy, that's different), and proving that they are, doesn't stifle the debate. It shows the debate to be pointless.

My goal in this thread was never to debate you, it was to explain why you are irrational. None of the so called evidence you are citing is rational (the fact that he spent four years in Indonesia is not evidence of his religion, neither is having Muslim roommates, neither is having been abandoned by a Muslim father at birth). Citing an instance of him mis-speaking by accident as evidence is irrational. The technique of constantly asking loaded questions, to avoid clearly assuming a position in a debate, is irrational. Denying the possibility of actually knowing the answer to the question being debated is the height of irrationality.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...