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man's values conflict with evolution and nature.

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Dune
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In evolution, survival and reproduction ( by any means ) are the only things that matter. Man is a product of evolution and continues to live within the same environment/nature.

Why then, should man suddenly throw away the basic rules of nature, and say using force against others is wrong?

He may have "will" which now separates him from animals, but why does it fundamentally change his values? Why doesn't survival, reproduction and the use of force against others remain the ideal purpose of man's life?

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Why then, should man suddenly throw away the basic rules of nature, and say using force against others is wrong?

Actually we are following our nature. Our nature is that we are rational animals and our rationality is the way we survive. Achieving our values and surviving is possible only by rational means in the absence of force.

Why doesn't survival, reproduction and the use of force against others remain the ideal purpose of man's life?

First, not all animals use force (herbivores). And second, we do still use force against other animals (as most of them do). But if we expect our rights to be respected, then we must respect the rights of other men.

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Because, in principle, it is the only practical way to achieve values in society.

I understand this. Are you addressing just that point, or this an answer to my entire question?

Are you saying there is no fundamental reason why acting like animals is wrong, its simply that to attain values we must elevate ourselves above this state?

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Actually we are following our nature. Our nature is that we are rational animals and our rationality is the way we survive. Achieving our values and surviving is possible only by rational means in the absence of force.

First, not all animals use force (herbivores). And second, we do still use force against other animals (as most of them do). But if we expect our rights to be respected, then we must respect the rights of other men.

isnt our true nature to follow the rules of evolution first and foremost? why does being rational seperate us from the most important rules of nature/reality that created us?

Let's say i classified plants as animals, they are both non-rational beings within nature. that means herbivores are killing.

Sure we can use force against animals.

Sure we need to respect the rights of other men by not using force. this doesnt answer the underlying question.

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Are you saying there is no fundamental reason why acting like animals is wrong, its simply that to attain values we must elevate ourselves above this state?
Yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying. I would put it differently though. I'd say that pursuing the value of life to the attainment of happiness is the fundamental reason. I'd say that the cave man had certain concrete ways to do this, which worked at his state of knowledge, and that we have better ways to achieve the same fundamental end.
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isnt our true nature to follow the rules of evolution first and foremost?

No. "to follow the rules of evolution" is not an attribute, it's a normative abstraction. If you try to identify facts of reality, you should use cognitive abstractions (answer the question "what is?"). After establishing what is man's nature, you may ask "what is good?" for men.

But you can't say man's nature is to consider this or that good. That is just begging the question, not building an argument on some facts of reality you've previously identified.

Man is a rational, volitional animal. That is his nature. He is an animal, but the essential attribute which differentiates him from all other animals is his rational capacity.

why does being rational seperate us from the most important rules of nature/reality that created us?

Nature and reality don't have the kind of rules you claim they have. There is no rule of nature telling us we should behave like animals.

If you want to ask why we are different from other animals, the answer to that question is: we just are. I could go into a long explanation on how it came to be that we are rational and other animals aren't, but that's not really relevant. The arbiter of whether a statement is correct or incorrect is reality. And, in reality, men are separated from other animals by a very important attribute, which allowed us to achieve so much more: rationality.

Sure we need to respect the rights of other men by not using force. this doesn't answer the underlying question.

Your "underlying question" is loaded with a mistruth. Nature does not contain any rules telling us how we should behave. Nature just is, it does not speak in abstractions. It is up to us to decide how we should act, based on what is.

The essential way in which you should correct your thinking is this: when studying nature (including the nature of men), you must form cognitive abstractions, in answer to the question "what is?". Once you move past that, and are attempting to decide what type of morality will help guide men's choices to better achieve their fundamental goals in life, only then should you form normative abstractions, in answer to the question "what ought to be?" or "what is good?".

But you should not use normative abstractions to describe nature. Nature does not think, it does not choose, its actions are not good or evil. Nature just is.

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