Saurabh Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Hi, I have a question: Isn't it against the Virtue of Independence to seek a Devil's advocate or a Sound-board for your own ideas? The context is below: I often seek some of my friends' help to get my thinking challenged on a key decision of mine. They do the same. But, now I am in a dilemma due to the concern that I may be sacrificing my Independent judgement this way. Does anyone have reasonably thought-out views on the above? Thx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Greebo Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 (edited) Seeking a soundboard or a devil's advocate is not the same as surrendering your judgment. If you went to your "sound board" and said, "I have this idea, what do you think?" and they said, "That's a bad idea, don't do it" and you didn't - THAT would be surrendering judgment. You wouldn't be considering their thoughts - you'd just be doing what they said on blind faith. However, if they said, "Well, have you considered X, Y and Z?" and you considered X Y and Z, which you hadn't thought of before, and you find them to be valid points, and the you change your action accordingly - what you've done there is checked your premises. No person is infallible - seeking out other people with whom to check one's ideas allows you the chance to consider things you may not have otherwise thought of until it was too late. You may, even with that input, determine that their input doesn't affect your plans or does so in an acceptable manner - and proceed apace anyway. Edited March 10, 2011 by Greebo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
claire Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 Not to belabor the point, but aren't you suspending your judgment by asking this questin here? Sorry - couldn't resist. Seriously though, are you suggesting it is wrong to ask questions of other people (whether in devil's advocate form or otherwise)? Are you expected to know everything? Do you have all the answers? If not, then you need to ask. From my point of view, that includes asking questions of everyone, not just Objectivist. I mean, if you have a question on playing golf, would you rather ask a mediocre Objectivist golfer or a crazy championship golfer? Anyway, ask away. Grames 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 I have a question: Isn't it against the Virtue of Independence to ... ... You should ask yourself why you want to be independent. What's so great about Independence anyway? How does it further your goals and your life? What is the mechanism by which it does so? Can being non-independent hurt you in some way? How? Forget about this particular example and try to come up with examples that make it clear that independence is some some value to you and furthers the quality of your life in some way. Come up with examples where a lack of independence can hurt the quality of your life in some way. Once you have "chewed" on the virtue that way, compare your particular example with those others and see if the devil's advocate example helps or hurts your life, and when and how. Hopefully, that will bring you the right answer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Element Posted March 10, 2011 Report Share Posted March 10, 2011 If you want a good example of what counteracts the idea of independence, look up "Filial Piety". It is a Confucian idea that includes the idea that one should give deference to your parents and superiors in disagreements even if they are wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saurabh Posted March 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Thx for the replies guys. Below is what I have extracted from all your replies and from the questions suggested by Softwarenerd: Seeking others as sound-board is good under following conditions: 1. If you use the process for gaining some information 2. If you use the process for adding some new aspect to your thinking that you may have missed 3. If you use the process to let the other person pick holes in your own logic, so that u can improve it Now, based on Softwarenerd's questions, I initially thought that Independence to me actually means not needing anyone else even for 2 and 3 above. And, then I also saw the contradiction (as Claire mentioned) in asking this question on this forum. I have resolved this contradiction for myself, as below: While aiming for Independence, I also need to keep in mind another virtue - Productiveness. So, if seeking a sound-board on 2 above (or asking a question on this forum) increases my productiveness (e.g. by reducing my decision-making time), then it is justified. Obviously, I need to ensure I am being Independent and not dependent on someone's mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted March 15, 2011 Report Share Posted March 15, 2011 Obviously, I need to ensure I am being Independent and not dependent on someone's mind.Is it really obvious though? What is wrong with being dependent? How is being independent related to the furtherance of life (or the quality of life)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saurabh Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) Dependence is wrong because it hampers one's long-term survival and happiness. This is because a dependent person needs someone else for ensuring his own existence - and therefore begins to let others decide for him. Now, since man is a sovereign unit and no man can feel other man's pleasure or pain - it is required that man optimize his own long-term happiness (max long-term pleasure, min long-term pain) using his own mind. Independence in thinking and decision-making ensures that man - even if he falters in the short-term - is able to sharpen his mind (rational faculty) gradually so as to be able to take right decisions and thereby optimize his own happiness. I think this is why James Bond chose to stay away from emotion-based relationships as he knew that these would make his judgement weak and would hamper his survival (He was in a zero-sum game). Edited March 16, 2011 by Saurabh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Aren't there situations where one has to rely on the opinions of others? For instance, suppose one has some complex disease. Assuming that one has not gone to medical school, doesn't one have to rely on a doctor's opinion. I mean, unlike asking a friend for advice and then judging for oneself (as an equally qualified judge), aren;t there situations where one cannot be equally qualified? Doesn't that mean one has to rely on the doctor, rather than evaluate his advice for oneself? Is it okay to give up independence in such situations? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saurabh Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 (edited) These are very good questions - making me think more clearly. I would answer by defining what I mean by Dependence. I mean Dependence in Decision-making on matters pertaining to one's life. Now, I would certainly need to depend on a qualified doc's advice for an illness of mine. But I would not want to accept the advice based on his authority, and without critiquing it using my common sense. This is my survival strategy. As an example, a doc in India prescribed antibiotics for my 2-year old son for Viral fever. I did some google research and realized the antibiotics are not needed for viral infections. I questioned him back next day. He gave me a vague reply - saying that we typically give all medicines in India to be comprehensive. I used my common sense that a medicine that is 'anti' 'biotic' should not be used indiscriminately. I also collected evidence that indiscriminate use actually lowers body resistance over time. So, I decided to go against the doc's advice. I found another doc who agreed with this logic, and has been treating my son better (whenever required). The point is: I would rely on experts (as that is consistent with virtue of productiveness due to division of labor). However, I would not accept someone's expertise without applying my own basic reasoning. There are enough examples of experts screwing up the world (LTCM, Sub-prime crisis, Keynesian economics, etc). Edited March 16, 2011 by Saurabh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prometheus88 Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Hi, I have a question: Isn't it against the Virtue of Independence to seek a Devil's advocate or a Sound-board for your own ideas? The context is below: I often seek some of my friends' help to get my thinking challenged on a key decision of mine. They do the same. But, now I am in a dilemma due to the concern that I may be sacrificing my Independent judgement this way. Does anyone have reasonably thought-out views on the above? Thx! It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.--Aristotle Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saurabh Posted March 16, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.--Aristotle Hi, I don't clearly understand what you are implying. Could you clarify? Thx! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted March 16, 2011 Report Share Posted March 16, 2011 Now, I would certainly need to depend on a qualified doc's advice for an illness of mine. But I would not want to accept the advice based on his authority, and without critiquing it using my common sense. This is my survival strategy. ... ... The point is: I would rely on experts (as that is consistent with virtue of productiveness due to division of labor). However, I would not accept someone's expertise without applying my own basic reasoning. ... Exactly. The meta-point is that one need not ask "am I being independent?" It is fine to ask that as one is learning Objectivism, but once one accepts the basics, stop asking that question. Instead, ask something like this: "am I doing the sensible and practical thing?" If the answer is "yes", then surely it must be the moral thing too. Objectivism says that the moral is the practical; also, that rationality is a key virtue, also that one must take a long-term perspective and use one's life as a standard of value. Putting all these together, one can automatize most of the qualifications, and boil it down to asking what's the sensible thing to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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