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Free State Initiative

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I never claimed to be part of this group, or that I even support such an idea, just merely pointing out concrete evidence contrary to your statements.  Also, as someone has mentioned, we have no idea if these are even true students of Objectivism, Objectivishists or just liars... the last two being nearly the same thing with the exception of errors in knowledge.

Oh, I'm sorry, I assumed, with the typical result, that was your site and that you were, as a corollary, a member of the FSP. And I have no idea about them either, I've never seen it before or seen anyone connected with it.

-Rich

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Clarus,

I am curious why someone would just expect an objectivist to sign on to a blanket commitment like this. Also argument from intimidation is not going to get you anywhere on this forum.

I for one would to live free-er but I have roots put down where I am and moving would incur a significant cost to my life in many areas. If I am going to move I want to see that its a significantly better to make those costs worthwhile.

Please see my latest post on why I think Objectivists would and/or should.

What intimidation?

Indeed, and many people are in a similar position as you are. However, there are many ways to aid and steer this project other than moving. Recruiting members, donating money (join as a friend of the FSP), writing essays or OpEds, etc. are what others have done.

-Rich

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Classic arguments from intimidation:

" are willing to help in the creation of this free society by signing the statement of intent or second-hand after all the work is done?"

You aren't a second hander, are you? So of course you will sign.

" That doesn't sound like something John Galt would do."

You don't disagree with JG do you? So of course you will join.

" I hear a lot of talk from Objectivists, but rarely, if ever, have I seen them walk the walk."

You arent one of THEM are you? So of course you will sign.

" I guess I am not as short sighted and/or idle"

You arent short sighted and/or idle either, ARE you? So of course you will join

These (and the others I didnt bother quoting) are ALL "out of line".

--

" I did not bring Libertarianism into this discussion, others did and I have attempted to move away from it"

They (and I) have properly identified any concept or idea in which liberty is mentioned but neither defined, nor given an ethical, epistemological, or metaphysical foundation AS libertarian - regardless of whether those promoting the concept or idea acknowlede that fact or not. And of course you were trying to "move away from" identifying liberty as a floating abstraction as being libertarianism. You are quite aware of its ill repute here. Avoiding identification only serves your end.

--

" am I wrong, or does Rand not hold freedom to be an instrinic value/desire of man?"

You are wrong.

"Francisco wished to be free to mine copper, Rearden metal, Roark building, etc."

And people wish to be free to use whatever OS they want without MS making agreements with computer manufaterers to ONLY put windows on their systems. And people want to be free to copy music from their cds to their computers. Etc etc. Of course without a proper definition of liberty, none of these things can be ruled out. And without a proper ethical system, no proper definition can be determined, and no proper political system can be built. And without a proper epistemology, no proper ethical system can be determined. And without a proper metaphysics, no proper empistemology can be established.

--

"My point to you and this forum is that the FSP is an excellent project for Objectivists to actively become involved in."

In other words, your point to this forum is that liberty requires no foundation, and that it is an excellent thing for Objectivists to sign political blank checks (as you explicitly admitted this is). If you knew anything about objectivism, you would understand that neither of these assertions is supported by objectivism.

--

"Your threat of removal is uncalled for." Actually, libertarian trolling specifically calls for removal. The warning was merely a courtesy. And the courtesy has now ended. Goodbye.

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I was actually interested but now it seems like some secular cult.
How do you come to that conclusion? :)

My point to you and this forum is that the FSP is an excellent project for Objectivists to actively become involved in.

Why would an Objectivist become an activist in the Free State Project? There isn't any platform for it, much less an agreed agenda. It's like a mini-LP: Some vague ideas, no agenda, and many angry members of the first-parties. The only point the FSP (and the LP) makes is that it is against big government -- but there is no mention of what they're for. (This is similiar to the anybody-but-Bush democrats.) So there is very little agreement on anything. For examples of this, look at the tempest over Iraq (and foreign policy in general).

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How do you come to that conclusion?

:lol: It was a little bit of sarcasm and exaggeration.

But I still thought the intimidation wasn't normal at all. He constantly taunted and tried to guilt everyone into moving into some community. It reminded me of Fred phlelps.

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This is a note to Clarus, who may be wondering who deleted his posts:

This forum is private property, and anyone who uses it after being asked to leave is violating my property rights by trespassing. Because, I not any of the other moderators is the final judge of what content is acceptable, it is possible that they are wrong. In that case, an appeal to me is the proper course of action. However, trying to get around a block or moderation is the surest way to be permanently banned from this site. Even if I decide that he original ban was not justified, disrespecting my property rights is sufficient cause for banning someone permanently.

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  • 4 years later...

*** Mod's note: Merged with similar topic. - sN ***

Got this story today from atlasphere - here's the meat:

The Free State Project (FSP) is an organization whose purpose is to persuade 20,000 pro-liberty activists to migrate to New Hampshire. By “pro-liberty,” it means participants believe the maximum role of government is the protection of life, liberty, and property.

Anyone here from NH, or know any more about this?

Edited by softwareNerd
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Here's a question. While we know that Libertarian's premise (that no man has a right to initiate force against another) is false by virtue of their treatment of it being treated as axiomatic, NOT in the fact that the claim itself is false, if it is their intention to create a region which operates under that principle, why not consider going there?

If we can operate in the USA under its increasing Stateist mindset and still actively oppose it by being vocal about our opposition to the status quo, why could we also not go live in a Libertarian state, enjoy much greater freedom, and still actively oppose those areas of the Libertarian philosophy with which we take exception?

Would we harm our cause by doing that more, less, or not at all, as compared to how we live in the USA today?

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Go to their forum and try talking to these people--they are almost all Nihilists or Satanists. I know this from experience.

Hmm. That certainly changes the landscape...

On the plus side, the Satanists will find willing victims for sacrifice among the Nihilists... :lol:

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Go to their forum and try talking to these people--they are almost all Nihilists or Satanists. I know this from experience.

Well I checked, and this:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9130.0

was the first thread I looked into, and I don't think much really needs to be said about it.

All of life requires belief. Reason's foundation is faith. This is inescapable. We likely believe many things in common, however all it takes for me to violate *your* sense of reason is to believe that our obesrvations are not reliable or somehow different. Also, I find it odd that you cite reason as the basis for morality. If we're pure social darwinsits, it's reasonable to believe that if one person can dominate another, they deserve to. Oops...
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But is it a valid scarifice if the victim doesn't care one way or another?

Do you think Satan cares?

Well I checked, and this:

http://forum.freestateproject.org/index.php?topic=9130.0

was the first thread I looked into, and I don't think much really needs to be said about it.

That someone said that about reason doesn't alarm me.

That apparently nobody challenged it, does.

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That someone said that about reason doesn't alarm me.

That apparently nobody challenged it, does.

When I was there I did a lot of challenging-- then I realized it was pointless and quit participating, because I realized that I didn't want to have anything to do with those nutts.

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No valid political movement succeeds when all they have as a common thread is that they are AGAINST something - and not even a common thread as to HOW MUCH they are against something.

The LP contains everyone from out-and-out anarchists to small-r republicans who just want "a little less" government (Edit: And, I should add, denies that either is wrong in their views - which is the important part.) A natural result of their denial of the importance of "the argument" (ie the philosophic base) as opposed to the "conclusion" (ie less government.) And - the principled is the practical! - the result of this is a hopeless morass of people who can't agree on ANYTHING, except a very general (and, practically in terms of making a government, useless) "less government."

No matter how successful the FSP is in terms of getting warm bodies to New Hampshire, they will never take over the government and make a cohesive political force. The organization is fundamentally schizophrenic and anti-philosophy, and for these reasons I recommend any Objectivist or Student of Objectivism not associate themselves with them.

Edited by sanjavalen
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No matter how successful the FSP is in terms of getting warm bodies to New Hampshire, they will never take over the government and make a cohesive political force. The organization is fundamentally schizophrenic and anti-philosophy, and for these reasons I recommend any Objectivist or Student of Objectivism not associate themselves with them.

As a former FSP member (I liked the idea before I met the people involved), I second that--for all the reasons he gave and my own.

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  • 2 months later...
Go to their forum and try talking to these people--they are almost all Nihilists or Satanists. I know this from experience.

Actually living here myself, I know plenty of Free Staters who are neither nihilist nor (*chuckle*) satanist. In fact, we have a fair number of Objectivists, though they're not a majority. A discussion forum where about 40 people participate is not a very useful way to figure out the general beliefs of 10,000 FSP members. Actually coming to one of our events (the Liberty Forum or PorcFest) would be a much better way.

Edited by LiveFreeOrDie
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All you naysayers are making a big mistake. Plenty of OFFLINE FSPers are very nice. The internet in general is made of nihilists and satanists. To lay the blame on the FSP for the crimes of internet culture is quite bigoted. Believe me, I know internet culture and most internet goers, denied of their anonymity, would not act offline the way they do online.

Example: www.4chan.org ... it's practically all nihilists and satanists.

Edited by TuringAI
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:read:

"[The Free State Project] is a laudable goal and many Objectivists are taking part in the project. Any lover of liberty would wish the project to succeed. The Objectivist Center will continue to offer the philosophical ammunition such fights for liberty ultimately depend on." -- The Objectivist Center, speaking about the Free State Project.

Why am I NOT surprised! :lol:

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