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Osama bin Laden dead

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Good article in the Mail Online, lots of nice shot of people celebrating. That being said, the comments by the Brits after the article are telling. Apparently, we are displaying boorishness by our joy at the death of this monster. Of course, they would never stoop to such public displays of emotion. And, of course, we have only made things worse. :huh:

What?! No beheadings?

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I watched a few minutes of Obama's speech and couldn't stomach anymore. It was obviously a campaign speech. He was pretending to be pro American and to have supported our efforts in the middle east al

I don't see why. Guy killed a bunch of innocent people because he was crazy/consistently religious (which are basically the same thing). He despised Western civilization as such, and everything that c

Sorry it took so long to respond. Having said that, I don't think what I'm saying is that complicated. You said Islam was a total state ideology. I disputed that by pointing out that not all p

It's a celebration of justice, including in this particular case, even though this is not the end of this "war on terrorism," the death of a killer. The celebration of the death of a killer is the celebration of life. It is not comparable to those who love death as we love life and celebrate death and destruction.

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I don't get the whole partying in the street thing, frankly. Delighting and revelling in death/killing seems discordant to me (and probably all the British people I know). It's got nothing to do with 'spine' or 'PC.'

Yeah, it gave me the creeps. I was reminded of this:

It is repulsive to see all those beings with worse sins and crimes in their own lives, virtuously condemning a criminal, proud and secure in their number, yelling furiously in defense of society.

Now obviously none of those people have worse sins or crimes than bin Laden, to say so would be absurd. Yet something about a bunch of distorted faces on television revelling in the moment, safe and secure on their collective moral high ground gave me the heebie jeebies.

am I way off base?

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...something about a bunch of distorted faces on television revelling in the moment, safe and secure on their collective moral high ground gave me the heebie jeebies.

am I way off base?

I don't see why. Guy killed a bunch of innocent people because he was crazy/consistently religious (which are basically the same thing). He despised Western civilization as such, and everything that comes with it, and he killed thousands as one battle in his war on civilization. He was one of the most vile and evil human beings on the face of the Earth. He shouldn't have been killed and buried at sea, he should have gotten a lot worse (and publicly too, so everyone can see what happens to evil mass murderers). The destruction of evil is the defense of the good, the defense of the good is part and parcel with its pursuit. Killing bin Laden was a great act of justice, a huge moral victory over the enemies of civilization. That is what people are celebrating. They're celebrating, in a sense, all the good in civilization and modernity.

They're celebrating life by celebrating a symbol of death's own slaying. I don't see why that should be frowned upon or disturbing in any way. Why should it be? What basis could there be for such an emotion? Some form of compassion or sympathy for the slain? Bin Laden was a subhuman monster who would have killed you if he had the chance, why would ANYONE feel sympathy for him? Loathing and contempt are the appropriate emotions to have to such a creature, and joy at his long overdue departure from existence.

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I agree with everything youve said. Id just rather celebrate privately in my own way, rather than go on tv and dance around waving my finger like I personally had something to do with this monster being brought to justice.

"We win", "in your face", "we got him", that kind of stuff. Thats just off putting to me. I dont like when people say "we" won when the Red Sox win either, maybe Im weird.

Edited by JayR
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Killing is a grim business, no matter what. Obviously in this case we all approve of it, it was something that needed to be done, and it was justice. But I've got no idea how you generate the emotion of joy out of a situation so regretful.

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If regret is all that a person felt for the death and destruction of 9/11, the WTC and 3000 people, the attack on the Pentagon and the crash of Flight 93, then I suppose that they would be rather indifferent to bin Laden's death.

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It's regretful that there exists doctrines to lure young men into evil jihad, it's regretful that he planned terrorists attacks, it's regretful that countless lives have been lost trying to apprehend him, regretful that soldiers had to take up arms and extinguish a life at all. When the situation concludes (OBL dying is sort of the conclusion), my overriding impression of the entire affair is one of sadness.

When you read the paper and you see that a murderer has been executed in a state prison, do you crack a big smile and feel the need to celebrate? I doubt it. When I read such things, I feel regret that justice needed to be done like this (even though it was fair), compounded perhaps with relief (that there's one less danger in the world) and quiet approval. But certainly not joy or delight.

Edited by Tyco
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It's regretful that there exists doctrines to lure young men into evil jihad, it's regretful that he planned terrorists attacks, it's regretful that countless lives have been lost trying to apprehend him, regretful that soldiers had to take up arms and extinguish a life at all. When the situation concludes (OBL dying is sort of the conclusion), my overriding impression of the entire affair is one of sadness.

It is not over, the "situation," but this is a symbolic victory, a bit of justice. In the face of what has been - sure, one can say it's "regretful," but it still is what is and has been what it has been, and the question is, what to do about it? - then this is a cause for a kind of celebration. People celebrate it in different ways. I myself was not in any crowd celebrating bin Laden's death (although I did applaud silently, alone), but I certainly don't frown on those who were celebrating in such crowds.

When you read the paper and you see that a murderer has been executed in a state prison, do you crack a big smile and feel the need to celebrate? I doubt it. When I read such things, I feel regret that justice needed to be done like this (even though it was fair), compounded perhaps with relief (that there's one less danger in the world) and quiet approval. But certainly not joy or delight.

Normally, if I hear that some murderer has been executed, I do not smile or feel the need to celebrate, but that is because I'm against the death penalty — not because I think that it's unjust, but because it cannot be reversed if later evidence proves that the person was in fact innocent. Because I do not personally know that they were guilty and likely know very little about the case at all (I suffered no personal, direct loss), I don't feel too much of anything. I hope it was just, and if it was, then I'm glad that justice was done and hope that it helps the victim or the victim's family and friends.

However, that's me as an outsider with very little personal knowledge of the case. If someone has lost a child to a rapest-murderer, for instance, and knows that the guilty person has been put to death, finally, after years and years of a drawn out legal process, then if they celebrate, I'd have no problem with them doing so. They would be celebrating justice. Given that they have suffered a terrible loss, I figure that they've earned the right to celebrate.

There's a difference here. All Americans, all rational people, suffered back on 9/11 (and since), and so I don't begrudge Americans for celebrating the death of bin Laden in a manner that I myself might not do.

This country has the might, the means, to put an end to this age of terrorism; it doesn't have the moral certainty or courage to do so. We will then all continue to pay. Regret is too minor a sentiment.

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Good one!

Also: "Bin Laden Death Prompts Crowds at Shanksville Crash Site"

Why is it, however, that those who died in Flight 93 are said to have died in sacrifice for their country or to stop the use of the plane for another attack on some civilian target? I think that they died trying to save their own lives knowing that three other planes had already been used to attack ground targets, not as a sacrifice of their lives, but in a heroic effort to save their own lives, knowing the inevitable alternative.

Edit: Tyco, if you will watch the video that brianleepainter linked to, ("Justice for the husband of victim" which is "Dr. Drew reacts to bin Laden's death" on CNN), paying attention especially to Dr. Drew's introductory comments, including what he says about his own sons' reaction to the news of bin Laden's death, then you may understand why those crowds were celebrating.

Edit: clarity

Edited by Trebor
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Lies from Muslims begin:

"American Muslims celebrate bin Laden's death":

"We are very happy to hear the news that he has been eliminated," said Osama Siblani, publisher of the Arab American News.

"This man is not a Muslim. This man has killed more Muslims than Americans - tens of thousands of people," Siblani told AFP.

"People are very excited that this happened because they want this sad chapter to be closed. They understand more than anyone else how much damage this man has done to the Muslim world and to the Arab world."

...

"Bin Laden's death also won't be enough to eliminate the Islamophobia and paranoia which has infected the United States and led to an erosion of civil liberties, Walid said."

Yes obviously they are lying! All Muslims lie!

Hurdur.

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"Bin Laden's Gone, But We Still Have Obama" by Dr. Hurd

"Bin Laden was not a Muslim leader." So says President Obama.

You could have fooled me.

Obama cites evidence that bin Laden killed Muslims as proof that he was not a Muslim leader. Now wait a minute. Imagine if a cult of people drank Kool Aid filled with poison. Imagine that they did so at the instruction of their leader, who wanted them to die in the name of some cause. (This has actually happened, both literally and metaphorically.)

Would you say that the leader of this cult of poisoned Kool Aid drinkers, because he ordered them to suicide, was not their leader? Of course not. You'd say they were members of a cult, and that he was their leader. You would question the nature of the ideology and psychology behind this cult. You would say, “What’s wrong with these people that they so worship a man that even when he tells them to be self-sacrificial martyrs for his sake, they mindlessly obey?”

Islam, like any fanatical religion taken seriously, is no different. We all know it. But most of us are too afraid to say it.

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It is not true that Muslims lie as a rule. When it comes to such things, my muslim acquaintances are just as upstanding as the next guy. Also, there are a lot of Muslims who despise bin Laden and other Islamic terrorists, and fear that muslim terrorists like him make it harder for them (i.e. peaceful muslims) to live their lives in a non-muslim society.

The talk about Taqiyya is overdone. Often on the forum someone will ask if it is okay to lie in some circumstances. Objectivists will often answer that honesty does not demand that one truthfully tell a murderer where he can find his victim. Since religious edicts tend to be much more absolute, Taqiyya simply lays down an exception. Instead of making a general statement that honesty is contextual, it lays down a specific context where one may lie. Contrast this with the Christian story of Peter denying Jesus which can be read as a lack of moral courage. Instead, Taqiyya gives more practical advice: you can hide your views and your faith to protect yourself.

It does not follow that Muslims in general are liars any more than it follows that Objectivists are for their own belief in the contextual nature of whether it is right to lie.

Edited by softwareNerd
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From "Dawn", Pakistan's leading English language newspaper.

... ... we should be asking, does this episode not validate almost all the other allegations and concerns that the US has exhibited regarding Pakistan’s rather shadowy and topsy-turvy war against terrorists?

We have to prove to the world that Pakistan is not a country that accommodates and hides mass murderers. But then, what to expect from a country some of whose politicians and media raise more hue and cry about US drone attacks (that have killed around 2,000 people, most of them militants), rather than about suicide attacks by Taliban/al-Qaeda that, ever since 2004, have slaughtered over 34,000 civilians, policemen and army personnel.

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Okay. So bin Laden was not a Muslim.

The claim in the Obama quote you object to is that he was not a leader of Muslims in general, in the same way that Jim Jones (from your above comparison) was not a leader of Christians in general, but rather a leader of a Christian cult which most other Christians would recoil from.

EDIT: Hmm, apparently, although Jim Jones claimed to be the reincarnation of Jesus, he also claimed to be the reincarnation of Gandhi, Buddha, and Lenin. Even so, a hypothetical leader of a Christian cult could not be honestly construed as a "Christian leader" in a general sense.

Edited by Dante
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