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Here's a link to a Psychology Today article contrasting envy with jealousy:

http://www.medicinenet.com/script/main/art...rticlekey=34894

Their conclusions:

"ENVY

Feelings of inferiority

Longing

Resentment of circumstances

Ill will towards envied person often accompanied by guilt about these feelings

Motivation to improve

Desire to possess the attractive rival's qualities

Disapproval of feelings

JEALOUSY

Fear of loss

Suspicion or anger about betrayal

Low self-esteem and sadness over loss

Uncertainty and loneliness

Fear of losing an important person to an attractive other

Distrust "

I don't think they identified envy properly, but jealousy looks approximately right.

My view is that a relationship that involves much jealousy is probably doomed to an unhappy ending. If the jealousy is based on imagined threats that do not exist, then the jealous party is being irrational. If the jealousy is based on real concerns, such as the likelyhood that the other party really does aspire to be with someone else, with a set of values/characteristics different from one's own , then that suggests they may truly be unfulfilled with the jealous party. If you and your romantic other are both fully happy with one another, and are both confident of that mutual conclusion, then I don't see where jealousy can rationally enter.

If I was in a relationship that made me jealous, I'd ask myself the following:

Why do I think this woman would be interested in someone other than myself?

Does this indicate that I have misjudged what she values in a partner, or what she sees in me?

If she values another sort of person more than me, then should I consider finding a partner more compatible with the values I offer?

Have I or my partner changed from the time we intitially began our relationship, and has the value-provision & value-requirement relationship changed?

I've felt jealous in the past, on rare occasions. In retrospect, it was the result of me mistakenly thinking that the values I offered were exactly what the woman "should have" wanted in a man. Later I discovered to my disappointment that this is not always the case.

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I will concede that jealousy often occurs from some lack of self-esteem, but then again not a lot of members here are immune from that problem, including yours truly. There's nothing 'irrational' about lower self-esteem, it's just an undesirable state of mind stemming from either some wrong ideas and/or from unfortunate experiences. Jealousy arising in a person because of that lack of self-esteem is therefore unfortunate, and certainly not desirable, but it is not 'evil'. It's definitely not what you said before:

I think most jealousy comes from either wanting something unearned from another person, inaccurately judging another person, or expecting something unreasonable from another person.

This quote describes a person comitting some (even if small) breach of morality, violating the trader principle, etc. I think that a person who does nothing wrong, and expects nothing unearned, but yet feels a certain lack of self-esteem may feel jealousy just as well. There's nothing terribly wrong with that.

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Lack of self-esteem is for many people a very long-lasting issue. I wouldn't classify it, or emotions that may arise from it (jealousy), as a transient twinge.

If we were talking about jealousy as a transient twinge, then the whole discussion would be moot, because its a waste of time to make an in-depth analysis of something that impacts the person for a very short time, and goes away on its own account. Even if it's bad, if it is transient, then its irrelevant in the grand scheme of things.

I've been using the word 'jealousy' in the sense of a non-transient, perpetual, repetitive emotional reaction, and I still think it's valid to say that oftentimes this emotion arises out of lack of self-esteem rather than any serious moral transgression on the person's part. And since lacking at least some self-esteem is a ubiquitous issue, even amogst earnest and honest students of moral excellence, there's nothing to feel bad about. Yes we may lack self-esteem in certain areas and at certain times in our lives. And yes we may feel jealousy arising from that state, and that state only. All this is perfectly understandable and excusable. If I were jealous about my girlfriend, without her doing anything that conviced her 'beyond reasonable doubt', I'd realize that the problem lies in my self esteem and try to work around it. Or, if I couldn't contain it within me, I'd explain my weakness to my girlfriend and ask her to remove all possible reasons of my jealousy, even if wholly imaginary on my part.

I don't know if this is the kind of answer Soulsurfer was looking for. I'm trying to steer away from the surrogate therapy approach, and he asked a question about principles around jealousy and how to deal with it, so I hope my answer qualifies.

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This thread is so touching :D No kidding. As to your wife Soulsurfer, it wouldn't be that user 'Dagny'? She said she's still in her teens, and already married. Can't be that much of a coincidence, can it?

just to clear things up... I'm 23 and live in Los Angeles. Yes I am married, but not to SoulSurfer...though sometimes I do wish my husband was an Objectivist as well. ;) I actually did get married young ....at 19 as a matter of fact and would like to concur that its not a good idea to get married young. My husband (who is a year older) and I have had our share of problems to work out. Props to SoulSurfer for trying to work things out. :D

~Isabel

p.s. I totally agree with Betsy that women like to feel "wanted" and "owned"

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If jealousy is limited only to an emotional state, then of course that state is as morally neutral as any other automatic subconscious responses. However, I don't think that jealousy pertains only to emotions and feelings, but rather to a whole package of subconscious material AND the way one chooses to deal with that material in action. In that sense, since there is a conscious choice involved, I do think that a jealous person could be regarded as either moral or immoral.

My feelings are not tools of cognition. Just because I feel something is bad or painful, doesn't mean that I should act on that feeling as a substitute for an objective evaluation by a process of reasoning. Whenever I get jealous, I try my best to consciously focus on something else -- anything else but my feelings and negative thoughts. If this fails (which it mostly doesn't) then I get caught in a storm, and it is very difficult to get out of that storm by an act of choice.

Now there is another aspect to consider in this context: values and integration. (This is, by the way, the part NONE of my professional psychologists can grasp.) Let me explain: When I look at the world, I strive to understand it as an integrated whole in regard to essentials. The same applies to everything else in my life (most of all to personal values; the higher the value, the more important is the level of integration). When I am successfully integrating, a sense of control CAN result from that. And when I am in control, happiness CAN result from that.

I was the one who ended the relationsships with ex-girlfriends, when it occured to me that their behaviour and choice disintegrated my sense of control, thus also my long term happiness. What I value most in a romantic partner is her level of integration and honesty, as it is applied subconsciously (in the form of a rational sense of life) and consciously (in the form of consistent behaviour and understandable choice). So whenever an ex-girlfriend started to flirt with other men, just like that out of the blue, rationalizing the behavior by claiming it was her innocent little notion of having fun ("a women's right"), I found it disturbing and a flaw in her character. Because, no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't integrate that kind of "fun" at all.

In essence, my response to such behaviour on her part would be: Why would you, if you value the integrity of our romantic relationship, want to spend time and effort flirting with other men or trying to build social networks that make it more easy to find potential partners? Why would you want to spend more time, not together with me, but together with friends and strangers?

You see, many guys tell me that their wives or girlfriends have the liberty of doing the things they want, no matter what as long as it doesn't include another man being inside her body. They are not affected by their partner's choices, they assert, and of course they trust their partners completely. "Hell, my girlfriend could go to a rock-festival, sharing tent with polyamorist leftists -- I trust her completely" or "My wife can have a private dinner with another man she met at her work, and dance with him if she enjoys that. Why, actually I don't mind if she spends a weekend at his place, drinking some tea and discussing, because I trust her completely, she wouldn't cheat on me."

I can't understand such attitudes at all. If my woman wanted to do any of these kind of things on her own, I would find that very unattractive in the context of our romantic relationsship. It would change my estimation of her. Sure, we could be good friends, but not romantic partners. It has nothing to do with me not "trusting" her. That's not the issue. The issue is rather this: If she chooses this or that, and it happens repeatedly several times, then I don't trust that the status of the romantic relationsship will last or get better.

Sometimes there is an obvious clash of values involved. Why should I spend time on an individual who doesn't want to integrate, e.g. by eliminating the potential dangers to the relationsship rather than encouraging them? In my experience, a lot of women seem to rationalize such behaviour by suggesting that THEY want to be sure I am the right man for them. Her implicit rules are: If I hold her too loose, then I am not the right man for her; if I hold her too tight, then I am not the right man for her. The optimal balanced ratio changes constantly. "A women has a right to change her mind."

A typical example of this type of woman would be, on a monday: "Oh, you're so authentic when you are jealous. I find it attractive when a man wants to own me psychologically, to make me exclusively his. I feel free when a man controls my behavior." The same woman on friday: "Oh, you're so ridiculous when you are jealous. I find it unattractive when a man wants to own me psychologically, to make me exclusively his. I am a free woman. I have a right to act on my whims. Don't you try to control my behavior!"

On the other hand, making love to a woman feels like the highest form of integration possible to experience. I couldn't stand being without it. And if a woman can change, doesn't it follow that she could change to the better? Why should a man just give up because a woman -- especially if she is young -- engages in little acts of disintegration? Or is it just that from a man's point of view it is disintegration, whereas she sees it as integration? Are men really from Mars and women from Venus? Does faith in a romantic relationsship in a sense imply rationalization, chance or blindness? (I better stop writing now since this starts to sound like a Carrie column in "Sex and the City".)

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This whole discussion 1) seems very abstract and 2) there is almost no solid concrete information about your wife's desires and motivations. This leads me to conclude that a big part of the problem here might be lack of proper communication.

As someone who has been happily married for a long time (37 years), I know that good relationships have problems and issues too, but that success requires good communication to resolve those problems.

Instead of assuming, surmising, and worrying about your wife's desires and reasons for doing things, ASK her and LISTEN to what she says. If you need help in doing that -- and almost ALL men do -- I recommend a book that can help you learn relationship communication skills: Dr. Aaron Beck's Love is Never Enough.

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In essence, my response to such behaviour on her part would be: Why would you, if you value the integrity of our romantic relationship, want to spend time and effort flirting with other men or trying to build social networks that make it more easy to find potential partners? Why would you want to spend more time, not together with me, but together with friends and strangers?

You see, many guys tell me that their wives or girlfriends have the liberty of doing the things they want, no matter what as long as it doesn't include another man being inside her body. They are not affected by their partner's choices, they assert, and of course they trust their partners completely. "Hell, my girlfriend could go to a rock-festival, sharing tent with polyamorist leftists -- I trust her completely" or "My wife can have a private dinner with another man she met at her work, and dance with him if she enjoys that. Why, actually I don't mind if she spends a weekend at his place, drinking some tea and discussing, because I trust her completely, she wouldn't cheat on me."

I can't understand such attitudes at all. If my woman wanted to do any of these kind of things on her own, I would find that very unattractive in the context of our romantic relationsship. It would change my estimation of her. Sure, we could be good friends, but not romantic partners. It has nothing to do with me not "trusting" her. That's not the issue. The issue is rather this: If she chooses this or that, and it happens repeatedly several times, then I don't trust that the status of the romantic relationsship will last or get better.

I don't know what the culture is like over there in Sweden (i've heard its very liberal...sexually) so forgive me if I'm being prejudice. I completely agree with everything you say in the above paragraphs. I had male friends that were good friends when I met my husband. However, as soon as I met my husband and fell in love with him he was my priority. I love spending time with him and though I do go out occasionally with friends he remains not just my love but my best friend. Like you said, why would I rather spend time with other people?

Now for a story that could relate to the jealousy topic. One night I was given a ride to my girl friend's apartment as I had planned to surprise her and sleep over the night at her place. However, my plan was foiled as she turned out to be a heavy sleeper and never answered her door. I had a male friend who lived three doors away and from the lights on his apartment could tell he was awake. I went in to call my father to get picked up. But it appeared he'd gotten home and had gone straight to bed as the phone was never answered. I spent the entire night talking to my male friend and we became better friends as a result. I told my then boyfriend (now husband) about it and he was fine. He knew enough to trust me and could understand the circumstances.

But that doesn't mean I would ever do that again on purpose... or start going out with my male friend on our own when I could just as well invite my husband along ...double date or whatever. There is such a thing as provocking/flirting with your male friends and I would never and have never crossed that line out of respect for myself and my husband. But that's me...maybe I'm just old fashioned but I wouldn't appreciate it if my husband even jokingly patted a female friend's buttox or oggled at her breasts. I don't know what your wife is like or if she has even crossed the line...but I should think there are still some old fashioned women in Sweden. I don't know if I've helped any but I wanted to let you know that I for one agreed with your values of how a couple should be.

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Whenever I get jealous, I try my best to consciously focus on something else -- anything else but my feelings and negative thoughts.

What you describe is the sort of avoidance that leads to repression, which is the end result of automatizing the forbidding of conscious content. The way to deal with unwanted emotions and "negative thoughts" is not to turn away to another subject, but to scrupuously work to identify the underlying judgments and evaluations which give rise to the emotions in the first place. It is only by allowing that content into your conscious awareness that you can begin to understand and subsequently change the source of your emotions. If, as you say, whenever you feel jealous you "consciously focus on something else," eventually you will not even know in a particular circumstance that it is jealousy that is driving your actions.

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From the Random Quotes on the front page of this site:

"A competent and self-confident person is incapable of jealousy in anything. Jealousy is invariably a symptom of neurotic insecurity. -- Robert A. Heinlein"

Can't say I agree with this, nor was Heinlein a philosopher in this sense. Perhaps Betsy could add something to this. But anyway, I guess GreedyCapitalist has unwittingly revealed his opinion on this topic by accepting that quote's validity :yarr:

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I was only able to read one post on this topic, due to lack of time, so I am very very sorry if my reply seems out of place.

Encountering feelings of jealousy has been very hard for me in the past. However, I have learned to develop confidence. I always give the girl I have designs on freedom in her choice of dating. I'm sure they respect that. And when her friends see that I'm confident and don't look down and that I don't get angry or pissed (which I am by the way), they will respect that.

I think of Francisco d'Anconia in regards to this situation. An attractive, quiet, confident smile.

There is nothing too deep or complex to understand. It's merely a matter of taking control of your own emotions. Your wife thinks other men as attractive...don't become upset over this fact, for you think other women are attractive as well, yes?

I've always thought that if I expressed my jealousy over a girl's action that that would portray me as having a lack of selfconfidence. Lack of confidence in the situation, lack of confidence in being able to obtain the girl, etc. Stay confident. For me, getting upset over situations that have made me jealous has only led me to become depressed. Whenver I'm confident I always win. If not, I move on.

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And when her friends see that I'm confident and don't look down and that I don't get angry or pissed (which I am by the way), they will respect that.

I'm not sure I understand this. Are you saying you are confident but still angry? Or, are you saying that you give the appearance of being confident but your still angry? :P

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Yes, that's pretty much what I'm saying.. However, I only do this in certain situations.

For instance when I am jealous of a girl I have designs on that is talking to another guy, I try to stay confident and show it, and I don't let her know that I'm jealous. Everyime I have tried to express my concern on such issues it has ended in disaster and to no avail. However, I think a girl can sense this by my actions - even though I have a confident smile when I see her talking to other guys. She knows I'm jealous, but respects that I keep a confident smile on -rather than taking it personally. However, I am usually jealous only when I do not know the girl. (I don't get jealous over my good friends). I tend not to let people whom I am trying to develop a relationship with know my deep personal complex psychological issues. It is not like lying, per se, they just would not merely understand the conext, so therefore I cannot explain the full extent of it. I care about them.

Besides, they'll get to know my psychological issues deeper if the relationship improves over the years.

Is there something wrong with this?

Edit: Note: I am sure as my confidence increases as I get older, that the feelings of jealousy will eventually disappear.

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But the other day, after a long day in very demanding business, I drive out to the house knowing that she'll come by later. I buy some things so I can make her a special dinner. But when I arrive at the house she is obviously already there -- with friends. Now of course I get a little bit disappointed, this was supposed to be our evening. But then I think to myself that she's not expecting me to come earlier, I wanted to surprise her, and perhaps she wanted to surprise me as well.

Then I find her and her friend together in the jacuzzi -- with another guy. This guy is the boyfriend of her female friend, but that fact doesn't stop my feelings at all. I get very upset.

Is it ever objectively justified and morally proper to be jealous, i.e. is it ever in a person's rational self-interest?

I read this topic a few days ago and didn't have time to reply, so please excuse me if you've already found the answers you're looking for in the numerous, well thought out replies already posted here.

First of all, the jealosy you have described does not necessarily sound like an ethical dilemma. I think it's terrific that you are spending time being introspective and it tells me that perhaps you question whether you were having an irrational emotional reaction.

Due to the fact that you have described your anticipation of spending time with your wife only to have been met with disappointment that she was not alone when you got home - may (only you would know) indicate that you chose to focus on the fact that a man was present - rather than your disappointment in not finding her alone.

(Have you ever found that the smallest events will set you off, you know you're being unreasonable, and you really have to set yourself apart from everyone to figure out what is really bothering you? It's hard work, but usually you feel much better about having figured out what the problem is so that you can move forward with the corrections necessary to overcome it. That's normal and it's a part of growing.) :)

Another question you may ask yourself is whether you believe men and women can be "just friends". Does your wife view such issues the same as you?

In regard to your last question about jealosy and personal self interest - you don't want to be uncaring and apathetic, but jealousy in the denotative sense is strong and indicates negativity that could become quite unhealthy.

I agree with others here that it's a good idea for you two to have a good heart to heart and keep the lines of communication up and going! It is possible to grow and change through life together and to be happy at the same time! Remember to be confident in yourself and these sort of hurdles can make you stronger as an individual and as a couple.

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What follows below are my final introspective comments in regard to the subject of jealousy. I have been thinking about the involved issues as they have been raised in this thread and concluded that my "jealousy" is, actually, not fundamentally of a psychological nature at all. Instead, the whole issue boils down to philosophy, more specifically to values and the process of forming and integrating them subconsciously.

I have certain automatized responses to such values, i.e. certain feelings and emotions that are triggered in certain contexts. For instance, If I see a disgusting piece of modern art, my emotional response (i.e. disgust) to it follows from my longtime formation of conscious convictions and values. I think it is a piece of crap and that the artwork itself manifests a volitional act of disintegration, an attack on the integrating mind (i.e. on rational-inductive thought). The emotional response to such attacks amounts to one thing: disapproval and negative judgements.

The same logic applies to other concrete events and actions. So when my partner is acting contrary to my values, that naturally renders the emotional disapproval. The more important the value is to me, the more intense is the emotional response. Since my partner (and my romantic-sexual relationsship) is very important for my happiness, it follows that my partner is a very important value. What she does and doesn't do certainly affects my emotional responses.

Some questions arise: Why is my partner acting in a certain way? What values or subconsciously integrated philosophical premises influence those actions? If my partner was more rational and consistent, the space for differences in regard to value-judgements would shrink; we would reach the same conclusions more often. But sometimes this isn't the case. Yes, we are moving towards that ideal as we are rationally communicating with each other while growing in knowledge and experience. But right now, in this moment, we are at the risk of drifting apart. So, what to do about it? Does life require compromise?

In her excellent article "Doesn't Life Require Compromise?" (The Virtue of Selfishness), Miss Rand writes: "[O]ne cannot correct a husband's or wife's irrationality by giving in to it and encouraging it to grow." This is actually what all of my troubles with women is all about: trying to figure out what is irrationality and what is encouraging irrationality to grow. All my ex-girlfriends were very intelligent, beautiful and successful -- but it would just be a matter of time before our respective subconscious value-judgements crashed and burned when they met each other in certain contexts. It was always the same kind of clashes, usually involving either (1) the sanction of evil (irrationality), or (2) the sanction of things that might add pressure on the stability of our relationship (which, from my point of view, implied the sanction of evil and irrationality!).

The way I saw it, she sometimes wanted to have her cake and eat it too. Her idea of taking herself seriously always included somewhere a rationalization to act on whim or asserting her feelings as the final arbiter on any issue. One typical clash of values between us always occured when she thought that her act of letting other men flirt with her was some kind of fun personal game that had nothing to do with our romantic relationsship. I, on the other hand, thought that her very act of doing so implied a sanction of a disintegrated attack on our romantic relationsship.

Now, if my partner is mostly rational person and contributes a lot to my pleasure and happiness, although has some minor flaws -- I don't break up and sacrifice the entire relationsship just because the good isn't the perfect. Instead, I fight to the end, using the best communication skills and arguments I can find to support my values and make those flaws in her behaviour change to the better (and eventually disappear).

A proper defense of values implies action (here I agree completely with Dr. Peikoff's conclusions in "Fact and Value"). Just as an Objectivist wouldn't tolerate or sanction those who tries to throw a bucket of mud at Ayn Rand or at any serious student of her philosophy (that includes me) -- or those who claims to be Objectivists while at the same time opening up the door for those who might want to try throwing that mud -- a man who loves his wife wouldn't tolerate or sanction that which obviously might threaten or destroy the romantic relationsship.

In my world, that includes other men in certain contexts. The way I see it, a women (or man) who is seriously commited to a romantic relationship wouldn't tolerate any kind of behaviour that opened doors for potential other romantic and/or sexual partners. This issue is so important to me that if my partner doesn't approve of it or make it an effort to understand, accept and respect my position -- she cannot be my romantic partner. A good friend -- yes. A romantic partner -- no.

This is theory-part. In practice, it is often very difficult and time-consuming to evaluate objectively whether or not a certain behaviour reflects an "ignorant mistake" or an "active choice" (a different set of value-judgements). In the typical situation or context we have different judgements in regard to a concrete. I may judge something negatively, she may judge it neutrally (i.e. being ignorant). So when she wants to go alone to a female friend's party, a friend who thinks it is "cool" to invite militant communists and other criminal men to the party as well, my reaction is the same as in regard to the modern art example I gave above: disgust and disappointment.

I can choose whether or not I want to put my feelings on display. Do I make a scene when she's telling me at the restaurant that she might want to go alone to a party where the majority of people (in my conception) are evil? If I choose not to, I don't think that this implies emotional repression. If I choose to focus on positive values instead (such as having a good evening), I can file the negative value-judgement inside my head and analyze them later.

That is all I will say for now. I certainly welcome any additional comments, but I won't be able to discuss this matter further (due to lack of time). Again, thanks for all nice suggestions and support!

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I'd just like to add two comments to what you've said here Soulsurfer.

1) Your latest post looks like a backlash. Whereas in the first post you seemed guilt ridden and miserable, in the last post you put all the blame on her. I see what you're saying, maybe it's true that her error lies in pleasure of being flirted with men other than yourself. But oftentimes people minimize their own influence, when describing themselves. I have no idea of her perspective, for example. Who knows, you could be so incredibly clingy that no one in her position would be to blame for seeking an outlet. The point I'm trying to make is that it's rarely one sided, and the "theory section" of your post honestly seems like one large rationalization, "proving" why she's wrong.

2) This is regarding a quote of yours:

If my partner was more rational and consistent, the space for differences in regard to value-judgements would shrink; we would reach the same conclusions more often.

Although that's true for most objective values, such values are not the only ones that exist. No matter how rational you are, you cannot convince me not to like chocolate ice cream. I will keep loving it no matter what you say. These non-objective values, what I call "subjective" but Betsy perhaps more appropriately calls "personal", have little to do with rationality or lack thereof. Rational people often have large disagreements about these values.

And also, even objective values are often under dispute between rational people. Look at HB and LP's stances on the War in Iraq, for example, and apply it to your personal case: if your girlfriend expressed an opinion of the war opposite of yours, you would undoubtedly automatically disqualify that opinion as irrational. So when HB and LP disagree about objective values, that's okay, but when you two disagree, there must be something wrong with her? There are still problems with your approach.

P.S. I actually also learned something for myself from writing this post :)

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Soulsurfer, what I was saying there was simply an impression, not an argument. I suppose I could go through your post and try to explicitly outline why it appears to be rationalistic. But the simple answer is that it seems like one long deductive syllogism, without any reference to experience or inductive premises. But either way, what I said there wasn't even the crux of my post, just a sort of an afterthought in addition to everything else I wrote...

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