Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Concept-formation

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

Quote

However, concept formation is not the same as learning about a concept.

Your full post above sounds good to me - not easy to communicate on a forum.    Because the context is so important and context is assumed by the writer and the reader (reader and writers are not always using the same context). Since it would take too much time to constantly state the complete context that one frames their writing in, always takes a little work to communicate and come to an agreement.   

In that light, analyzing your sentence above, the only way that makes sense to me, is if I convert it to the possible meaning that you had.  Which I put my rewrite in quotes below:

Quote

Concept formation is not the same as learning about the meaning of the concept, the referents in reality.

page 13 ITOE 2nd edition:

"A concept is a mental integration of two or more units possessing the same distinguishing characteristic(s), with their particular measurements omitted."

The purpose of a concept is to organize information in a non-contradictory way and also convert a massive amount of information into a simple, single unit (word).  Much like the stick figure of a drawing of a man, compared to the stick figure drawings of the dog, etc).  The concept is the stick figure the man but that isn't man in the real world, the concept represents, the stick figure represents the concept man no matter how much you know about the meaning of man.  That's why the measurements are omitted from the concept!  

You don't learn more about the concept.  You can learn more about the items the concept categorizes, that's the meaning of the concept.  The baby and the adult both developed a category that in relation to their knowledge base, set the category for the concept Man.  As the baby grows to become an adult, they didn't learn more about the category (the concept), that remained the same i.e. to keep these things (man) within this category.  However, A) they learned about other things that required them to change the definition of the category in order to only have man in the category, and B. they learned more about the items in the category - the meaning of the concept.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Since i am trying to hi-jack this thread :) !  This post is me continuing to make a post without a question to prompt it and without a question in it.  With that said I might as well state the implicit question.  

a. Does this make sense,

b.  Is it a new look or perspective,

c. Is it helpful?  

Obviously for me the answer would at this time would probably be:

a. yes

b. yes

c. I think it will be but not sure to what degree.

It is my summary of my "thesis" that I've started to post here on a "real-time" basis, adjusting it as I've worked through the thought process (probably not a good idea).

 

  

“Measurement is the identification of a relationship – a quantitative relationship established by means of a standard that serves as a unit.”  A concept not only requires measurement within its process but a concept is a form of measurement, specifically a standard of measurement.  It’s not how much as in formal measurement, but it is this much.

 

“The requirements of a standard of measurement are: that it represent the appropriate attribute(CCD), that it be easily perceivable by man(perceptual) and that, once chosen, it remain immutable and absolute whenever used (definition).”

A concept has a CCD, is based on perceptual data, and must be contextually absolute.

 

Let’s see the comparison, first let’s look at a standard of measurement in the formal sense:

Let’s define the concept inch: A length of material this long [              ] (an inch).

The genus is length and the distinguishing characteristic is inch.

If you want to determine which things are an inch long, the distinguishing characteristic is the measure and you measure those things that are part of the genus (that have length). 

 

Now let’s see how a concept is also a standard of measurement:

Let’s define an automobile:  A motorized vehicle (genus) with wheels, rubber tires, hood and doors for transporting people (differentia i.e. distinguishing characteristic(s)).

The genus is "motorized vehicles" and the wheels, rubber tires, hood and doors for transporting people are the distinguishing characteristic(s).

If you want to determine which things are automobiles, the distinguishing characteristic is the measure and you measure those things that are part of the genus (motor vehicles).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You're right that it is not literally the concept you learn more about. Still, what you learn later doesn't change what the concept refers to as long as it was formed properly - you really don't need many examples of anything to form a concept of it. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Similarity:

A pet peeve of mine is that people write or think that you can see similarity among two items.  One needs to clearly move away from that idea if they have it - it's like a poison.

If you could only see two things through a glass window for your entire life - a black marble and a white box and you had no understanding of self consciousness, awareness of yourself.  Would you be able to determine any similarity between the two items?  No.  Similarity is determined differentiated at least two items against a third item.  That's at the very, very, basic, essential level, in life you need many more than that, because you don't look to group things together as similar unless you need to reduce the amount of information, that is the cognitive role of concepts and that context should never be dropped.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not sure if the reply below will answer your question in general.  After I finished it, I thought you might be annoyed that I didn't directly answer your question, so I added these couple of sentences here, to try to avert that.  I would tend to say that if I limit my knowledge to just this screen, in essence become a child with no prior knowledge, then I would say that yes my pictures I have on my screen in comparison to these two stamps, would make me say that the two stamps are similar.  

First we need to understand what we mean by similar.  Do we mean that kinda, for the most part?  Or do we mean exactly? Rand's similarity would be exactly.  Exactly within the parameters I set, something either is or is not an automobile.  

Similarity is contextual.  The context are the items that you are comparing something to (the relationships among the items). The species to the genus, in concept formation.  However, if you want to compare one stamp against the other, you would say that they are not exactly alike, they are not similar, IF you are just comparing the two and using the term similarity in an exact manner. (The black marks are different and one is torn).

If we just weigh the amount of common traits and similar traits among the two objects - we would say that they are similar, if by similar you mean kinda of, for the most part.  That's just comparing one stamp to the other, and I object to that method, because it is not precise and is undefined and assumes that similarity isn't a classification system by man for his needs, but inherent in the objects themselves (only).  Of course, that is much different than similarity in forming a concept and grouping a number of items under one concept, because we are only going to form a concept when we have the need for unit economy.  My points on similarity have been in relation to concept formation - that's the context.  

in regards to concept formation, you notice similarity based not only with the existing items on display as above and other items in the immediate environment but also in relation to all of your previous knowledge.

Are these stamps similar?  Depends on the context of the knowledge that you have.  Given that I've seen a lot of different stamps in my lifetime and I compare these stamps to them, I would say that these stamps are similar, exactly the same in a certain respect (omitting the different black lines on them and the torn edge on the one) compared to the genus of all the other stamps that I have seen.  Keeping in mind that I'm mentally taking the one item (two attached stamps) and mentally creating two individual items to compare, against my entire memory of all the stamps that I have experienced and remembered in my life.

Ask your self - could these two stamps be dis-similar?  In that they wouldn't be included in the same concept, assuming that we had a need to form concept of this particular kind of entity in reality?   Certainly not if I compare them to the various stamps that I have seen in my lifetime or the other images on my computer screen.  Based on a genus that is all the stamps that I have seen in my life i would say that they are similar.

However, if I was a stamp collector and had seen and knew that the black markings on the stamp on the right were printed on 42 million of these stamps that were made and that the stamp on the left had the different location of the black markings because it was the last stamp on the final run and was personal torn off by Jefferson himself, then I would say that these two are not similar, that the stamp on the left is significantly different than the stamp on the right - in relation to the genus (42 million prior Jefferson stamps) as opposed to the genus of every stamp ever made.  

This is where based on your need and purpose, you control the choice of the genus, the items that you want to compare those items that you are trying to identify for a specific purpose.  Are these two stamps similar?  That question always has to be are these two stamps contextually similar?  There isn't absolute knowledge that has no relation to anything else.  What's the context?  It's based on your values.  The thought that you can see similarity by looking at two items and just comparing them to each other - really since everything is different - they would not be exactly the same, then nothing would be similar UNLESS your definition of similarity is a vague resemblance or not exactly the same but mostly the same. She has created an exact system of thought.  It is or it is not, no grey area.  Also, if all you had to do was compare two items, in other words that is the only way that you determined similarity, then things would be similar (assuming two things could be exactly the same) or not similar, AND that would never change.  That would be a world where things were absolute, where knowledge was not about relative relationships among things but frozen in time.  That would be the erasing of value, goals, intent, context, life from knowledge, when those are the only reason we have knowledge!

Knowledge is always in relation to man, to your needs and purpose- that's the context for the relevant & appropriate genus.  As I described above, depending on the genus chosen, the stamps could be considered similar or not similar. Now, if the stamp on the left was unique and different than the stamp on the right and also different than the other 42 million stamps that matched the one on the right, and Jefferson himself had torn it off of the last run, then I would imagine it would be worth a tremendous amount of money and that would further make me consider it NOT similar to the other stamp, for obvious reasons (black markings are different plus the value is different).  On the other hand, if you didn't know  the story behind it, regardless of the fact that it was slightly different than the other 42 million, you might group it with the 42 million against all the other different types of stamps and just see it as a 2 cent stamp, lick it and mail off your envelope.  

So the last paragraph, not only took the markings into consideration when comparing the stamps to other stamps, but it also took into account the value of the stamp in addition to the markings.  Similarity is contextual.  It's not just in the objects, but it's items in the objects viewed from a certain comparative relationship.

So to quote her on page 6 and 7 of ITOE 2nd edition "Notice that the concept "unit" involves an act of consciousness ( a selective focus, a certain way of regarding things), but that it is not an arbitrary creation of consciousness: it is a method of identification or classification according to the attributes which a consciousness observes in reality.  This method permits any number of classifications and cross-classifications: one may classify things according to their shape or color or weight or size or atomic structure; but the criterion of classification is not invented, it is perceived in reality.  Thus the concept "unit" is a bridge between metaphysics and epistemology: units do not exist qua units, what exists are things, but units are things viewed by a consciousness in certain existing relationships."  

While reading the above quote, I would add something to it.  Because it covers that your identifying something in reality, and involves a certain way of regarding things, that is by shape, color, etc., but instead of saying "it is a method of identification or classification according to the attributes which a consciousness observes in reality", while true, that's a little dry for me, a little scientific and doesn't fully validate the value judgment made in picking the classification category.  You don't just classify according to the attributes you observe in reality.  That's part of the story but not the whole story, the relevant classification takes into account your values, desires and goals.  Those control the proper context for selecting the relevant genus that provides the concept that is correct for that context.  As noted in the two stamp examples above, how you value something or your intent or goal, determines what you compare it to 9chosen genus) and what you do with it.  Similarly, picking a genus to create your concept is no different than picking a standard to measure movement.  Is the pen on the table in front of you moving?  No, not in relation to you.  However, If you are an astronaut, traveling to the far reaches of the galaxy, and are coming back next week, you better realize that your pen is moving otherwise when you come back on the same exact path that you went out on, you'll miss the planet earth.  The genus chosen in forming a concept has to be appropriate for the value and goal at hand.  Your values and the goal at hand determines the appropriate context that guides the appropriate and relevant choice of genus to use.  That in turn, controls your result of whether something is similar or not.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, mike o said:

[A lot . . . perhaps due to the ambiguity of my question.]

In short, you were able to ascertain both similarities and differences between the two stamps presented as contrasted against the background provided by a monitor along with various other aspects introduced.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, I find your comment vague.

In one case, I found them similar,  In another I found them different.  In forming concepts I am dividing things up, to organize information.  In neither case, did I focus on looking at both similarities and differences at the same time, between the two stamps and the same background.  In both cases, the genus I used determined if they were similar or not similar.  

Now, I could pick 5 other perspectives that you possibly used "similarities and differences" but you'd need to identify which one you were talking about.

And I absolutely appreciate you not understanding my perspective or not clarifying your perspective clearly for me, possibly due to my own blindness.  So I look forward to having you clarify your perspective.  As of now, I think we disagree.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In light of your response, I can see how you find my comment vague, but I do not see where I expressed disagreement.

Let me reword my response.

In short, you were able to ascertain both similarities and differences between the two stamps presented as contrasted against the background provided by a monitor depending on whether you regarded the similarities, or focused on the differences.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Quote

In short, you were able to ascertain both similarities and differences between the two stamps presented as contrasted against the background

I'd just like to understand exactly what you mean by the above.  Let's use all stamps as the the genus.  Let's use these two stamps as an example of forming a concept, with both of them.  Let's view this from a first person perspective.  We compare those two stamps to all stamps and find that they are similar in the same regard (they have common differences).  That is they have common differences to all the other stamps.    I didn't see similarity "between the two stamps" directly.  I saw one different than the genus and then I saw another different than the genus and they were both different in the same way.  So if we left out "and differences" then I would agree with your statement quoted above.  I'd have no problem with In short, you were able to ascertain similarities between the two stamps presented as contrasted against the background.

Now, from a first person perspective, I didn't ascertain differences between the two stamps, I wasn't focused on the differences between the two stamps, therefore i wasn't aware of the differences.  I was focused on the difference of each stamp to the genus.  I didn't need to learn the differences between the two stamps, I just needed to learn that each stamp was different than the genus in the same way, I just had to see that they were similar.  Therefore, I have a problem if your sentence read: In short, you were able to ascertain differences (not common differences between each stamp and the genus), that is differences between each stamp and the other.  From a first person perspective, that didn't happen.  I don't pay attention to omitted measurements when forming a concept.     

Please clarify in what frame of reference(s), you are referring to "similarities and differences".  Because for me on a first person perspective and applying them to the next and same frame of reference below the 1st person perspective frame of reference (notice that multiple frames of reference are in play), you've made a mistake.  

Unless, your going to see my point and agree with me, please clearly state your case, that is your context.

 

Edit:

Finally, One other perspective to point out my confusion with your sentence.  Let me translate how I read your sentence but putting it in a different way.  I'll translate how I read "similarities and differences", by putting their equivalents in parentheses - using the same standard: In short, you were able to ascertain similarities  (common differences to the genus for each stamp) and differences  (differences to the genus for each stamp (that is how each stamp is different to the genus compared to the other stamp)) between the two stamps presented as contrasted against the background.  

From a first person perspective I don't do what is in red.  But that is how I read your sentence

Thanks,

Mike

Edited by mike o
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Just so I'm clear I'm revising my last paragraph above from:

Quote

In short, you were able to ascertain similarities  (common differences to the genus for each stamp) and differences  (differences to the genus for each stamp (that is how each stamp is different to the genus compared to the other stamp)) between the two stamps presented as contrasted against the background.  

to:

In short, you were able to ascertain similarities  (common differences to the genus for each stamp) and differences  (differences to the genus for each stamp (that is how each stamp is different to the genus and therefore different to each other )) between the two stamps presented as contrasted against the background.  

You are using "similarities" (that is their common differences) to the genus.  Then you're sentence reads that you learn differences of each stamp from the genus - the only way that makes sense is if you are repeating yourself.  Because from a 1st person perspective you are not noticing the differences between the two stamps by comparing each stamp to the genus.  Not in our example of comparing these with all stamps and assuming that these are the only two that are jefferson 2 cent stamps i.e. we are forming a concept.

 

In summary, the "vagueness" I see in your statement with "similarities and differences" is that I know those two terms can have numerous frames of reference i.e. many different established relationships and you haven't clarified in what context or frame of reference that you are using each of them (separately identified) and I'm curious to know in the hopes I can clarify what i know or learn something new.

Edited by mike o
Link to comment
Share on other sites

mike o stated:

A pet peeve of mine is that people write or think that you can see similarity among two items.  One needs to clearly move away from that idea if they have it - it's like a poison.

While people may state that you can see similarity among two items, you do realize that the rest of existence is always there to differentiate it from.

Grames even stated this early in the thread:

To perceive similarity requires two entities against a background.

Did you hijack the thread to state pet peeves? Or did someone else assert such a positive I'm overlooking?

mike o goes on to say:

If you could only see two things through a glass window for your entire life - a black marble and a white box and you had no understanding of self consciousness, awareness of yourself.  Would you be able to determine any similarity between the two items?

What was interesting in this is the perspective of an infant, prior to self-consciousness. On its own merit, this does set up a certain perspective. But unless it is a very short life, that particular state of consciousness does not remain with you for your entire life.

I don't recall specifically forming the concept of postage stamps, but it is hard to fathom without taking into consideration seeing mom or dad putting one on a letter to be mailed. By that time, I could ask "What is that?" and take the answer as an identification of what the object was, catalog with putting it on a letter to be mailed, and be on the lookout for other relevant data that comes along later to integrate with it. (getting them from the post office, learning that the post office prints them, that they facilitate the post offices business model, etc.)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe, hopefully someone else can jump in and answer my question.  Which is if you say in the same sentence in regards to forming a concept "similarities and differences" to what are you referencing the differences to?

Because I'm beginning to think that although I made a tremendous effort to identify my point, question, issue - it's been missed.  Likewise and in the same regard, I read your reply post Dreamweaver and I consider it doesn't answer my question that i've asked, when I assume you think it does (nothing against you on that one - potentially the same issue that I am having).

Let me introduce one example of how "similarities and differences" in that sentence could make sense IF interpreted in a certain perspective. If you noticed similarities between the items in the concept that you are forming - cash, coin, stamp, promissory note, against a group of wider objects and that formed your CCD.  Then you noticed specific differences of the stamps in relation to the CCD.  Since the term similarity is noticing differences in both cases - you ignore that and say that you noticed the things in common to form the CCD and then noticed the things that are different from the CCD (the DC) to form the concept.   Similarities CCD and differences DC.   But then again, notice that you've switched the perspective as you move from one to the other, because you could easily and more correctly say that you noticed just similarities or just common differences in both cases i.e. in forming the CCD and in forming the DC.

I am interested in a reply from someone - in regards to the sentence that I quoted from Dreamweaver:

Hoping someone can help me.  Dreamweaver - nothing personal against you, I've seen this in many publications including ITOE.  However, I just don't grasp the context that it refers to.  Looking for some help here.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

mike o, 

Not that dictionaries always give definitions in terms of essential characteristics, they do serve as a common go-to source for what most folk will turn to when they raise an eyebrow on how a term is being used.

Consider this clause you used: "Since the term similarity is noticing differences in both cases"

Merriam Webster provides the following for similarity.

  1. :  the quality or state of being similar

Not very helpful. It relies on an understanding of what similar is to grasp a particular instance of it. So what is similar?

  1. :  having characteristics in common :  strictly comparable
  2. :  alike in substance or essentials :  corresponding <no two animal habitats are exactly similar — W. H. Dowdeswell>
  3. :  not differing in shape but only in size or position <similar triangles> <similar polygons>

Personally, the one most suited to Rand's apparent usage is context 3, albeit, with reservations. A 30°/60°/90° triangle would not be considered similar to a 45°/45°/90° triangle. All equilateral triangles would be considered similar under this definition, but not all right triangles are considered similar (consider the two right triangles delineated and referenced in the previous sentence).
 An equilateral triangle is an isosceles triangle, but not all isosceles triangles would be considered similar per the wording, which can be related back to Euclid's works for potential elaboration and clarification.

Rand references a conversation with a Jesuit in ITOE

Somewhere in the 1940s, so it's over twenty years ago, I was discussing the issue of concepts with a Jesuit, who philosophically was a Thomist. He was holding to the Aristotelian position that concepts refer to an essence in concretes. And he specifically referred to "manness" in man and "roseness" in roses. I was arguing with him that there is no such thing, and that these names refer merely to an organization of concretes, that this is our way of organizing concretes.

So it should be obvious she is not adhering to differing only in size or position. Noses, hands, feet, and variations in roses differ in more than just size and position. Even "automobile" and "car" stretch this definition of similarity. Otherwise, similarity would be constrained to seeing a pyramid off in the distance and seeing it loom larger in the visual field as one approaches closer to the structure.

So what does Merriam Webster posit for difference?

  1. a :  the quality or state of being different <the difference between right and wrong>
    b :  an instance of differing in nature, form, or quality <noted the differences in color and texture>
    c :  archaic :  a characteristic that distinguishes one from another or from the average
    d :  the element or factor that separates or distinguishes contrasting situations
  2. :  distinction or discrimination in preference <timing is often the difference between success and failure
  3. a :  disagreement in opinion :  dissension
    b :  an instance or cause of disagreement <unable to settle their differences>
  4. :  the degree or amount by which things differ in quantity or measure; specifically :  remainder 2b(1)
  5. :  a significant change in or effect on a situation <it makes no difference to me>

When you, (mike o,) say

"Since the term similarity is noticing differences in both cases"

is that to be taken as the simple relative proximity to a similarity as can be observed in triangles, such as the distance of observer to the pyramids? Or do you perhaps mean the differences that occur within triangles that allow them to be dissimilar while still being regarded as triangles?

Edited by dream_weaver
adjusted formating
Link to comment
Share on other sites

If I only could pick one of your answers then it would be the first one.  Certainly not the second one.

So before I go, I've been studying her book ITOE over a period of 30 years now, off and on.  That set the foundation that allowed me to make some big jumps when I started writing about it.  If anyone wants to really learn a subject matter then write about it and it's an amazing process on your way to clarity.  

It's funny though, I consider her an incredible writer yet I've reached a point where I see a lot of presentation flaws in ITOE which makes it confusing and much more difficult to pick up the concepts.  Unfortunate, because I've always found it to be an incredible book, and wish it would become available easier to more people.  She is literally all over the map when it comes to similarity descriptions in the ITOE 2nd edition.  Mostly due to the fact that the relevant context or frames of reference are not clearly identified.  

I'd like to thank dreamweaver for the interaction, as it allowed me to find my answer via this discourse.  On the bottom of page 139 she states a vague idea of similarity and differences.  However she clearly identifies the principle on page 140.  "Observe that you would first have to grasp that there is such an entity, and then you would have to grasp in what way it is different from the class of objects which it resembles most."  As referenced on the previous page yet the same answer, she is saying that the similarity is what they have in common with the things they resemble most, the genus i.e. the conceptual common denominator.  The differences are the differences this specific group, set of measurements has with the genus, that is the distinguishing characteristic(s) that identifies the concept.  She's saying that these automobiles are similar to motor vehicles and different in a certain way that distinguishes them from other motor vehicles, thus creating the concept automobile.  

Here's my problem or what perspective one needs to understand, is that, you don't directly (without a comparison to a foil) see similarity.  Her writing implies or can lead the reader to believe that in regards to the genus, that you saw that similarity directly, as opposed to her definition of similarity as common differences to a genus.  I think it is important to understand that you don't see "similarities and differences", that to be consistent you see "differences and differences", you see differences of trains, boats, automobiles from other items and that is how you create the similarity of the genus - motor vehicles.  Then you do that step again, in order to determine the common differences that isolates the concept automobile from motor vehicles, that is you see the range of motor vehicles that specifies automobiles because they are different than other motor vehicles in the same way.

She is starting from the CCD as a given starting point when it isn't, it too like the concept is created by noticing a common difference from a larger background.  But she shortcuts that as a starting point and calls that noticing similarities and although the step below it performs the exact same thing, she calls that noticing differences.  Her frame of reference is the genus- as a given -in regards that the items in question say trains, boats and automobiles are all similar and create the genus, (but you can't drop the context in regards to her ultimate similarity definition - common differences to a foil) that is in relation to the genus, these items are different in the same way.  Fair enough if we understand the frame of reference.  But I think it is important to understand the principle that similarity is common differences to a foil, so whether it be the genus or the range of measurements within the genus that identifies the concept, you find similarity by comparing to a wider category, a broader range of measurements.  The common differences first establishes the genus from a wider range of measurements - that allows one to see that trains, planes and boats are similar IN RELATION to a wider group, then you perform the same calculation again, the specific measurement of automobiles within the larger range of motor vehicles, similarity is created by common differences to a wider range of measurements i.e. items.

So you see similar items and then similar items within that group.  or you see the common differences of certain items to a larger group and then again common differences to that group which forms your concept.  A concept is a standard of measurement, of a relationship between a certain group of particulars in relation to the a larger group of similar objects.  It's a two step repeated process.    

In addition, to writing about it, for those that really are fanatics - I'd take the entire book, put it on a word document, and have it reorganized into the following three categories 1) measurement, 2) Language/grammar, 3) concept, also alternatively once you grasp the basics of the book, reverse the order of the book - chapter 7 - cognitive role of concepts as chapter one and then chapter 6 is chapter 2, etc.  starts to make more sense that way.  

I've appreciated this forum - but I've finished my research enough to finish the first chapter of my book and move onto the 2nd - it's an eight year project to integrate cognitive psychology, neuroscience, physics, geometry, anatomy into an integrated movement theory for the golf swing.

All the Best!

 

Mike

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by mike o
Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's fine that as an -introduction-, you will not find a full answer. Rand sketched her theory well. But I don't find your characterization accurate. A CCD is not a starting point, it's a point pretty close to forming a concept. I'm not sure what you mean by starting point.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...