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Kjetil

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2046,

So you could argue that what is considered a free rider (a person that lives on the account of others) is something that would not exist in a free society - in a free society, a person could not live on the account of others; others would be protected from this. Ergo, he would die.

Well no, not necessarily. I'm just saying being a free rider isn't a problem in a free society because people can choose their associations freely based on their own moral decisions.

But suppose one doesn't live in a society that is free to that extent. One is faced with the dillema of enlisting to the army, killing and possibly be killed according to what others tell him - or being a free rider.

From the person's point of view, what should he do?

If he doesn't want to fight, then don't enlist. If we're talking about a draft, then he doesn't have a choice. And again, choosing not to be a soldier does not necessarily mean you are a free rider, as previously mentioned. That's the whole point of having an all volunteer armed forces, i.e. that you pay professional soldiers to do the soldiering for you. One does not become a free rider simply by refusing to enlist, or else everyone is a free rider on something because not everyone can do everything at once, and the concept ceases to be meaningful.

Now if you are living in a country without a volunteer armed forces, then that's a different story. You may just have to make the best of it with what you've got, if the consequences of resisting are so great. Then it's like paying taxes and other interventions, only to a much greater degree. But if you're being drafted into an actual war and you face the probability of being killed for something you don't believe in, then I'd say get the F out of that country if you can.

And Zip: Of course that brings into consideration the importance of allowing a person's right to disagree and refuse to fight. We could imagine that one might be unjustly called a free rider and condemned falsely, or legitimately.

Edited by 2046
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Israel.

That's definitely a country worth defending though, so I can't tell the prospective draftee what to do, it depends on his priorities and values. Certainly though, conscription is still wrong and still violates rights, so the Israeli government should just pay the market rate for soldiers and the society can rely on reason and persuasion to convince people that not living under Islamist domination is worth fighting for. Dissenters should be allowed to go free, and cowards or sympathizers can be morally condemned and peacefully boycotted.

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So, you say that you have the social right to avoid the draft, even though it might be a good thing not to.

What about the question "_Should_ an Israeli join the Israeli army?".

(I accept your assesment of Israel as true for the sake of the argument; that it is a country worth fighting for, and that there is a strong danger of Islamic domination).

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Zip, why was it significantly important for him to keep the Swedish citizenship?

I never knew the man well enough to know, or even to ask. I remember meeting him only once, he was a drunk and Dad didn't want to have anything to do with him. Being that Switzerland was his nation of birth I would think that it was some sort of nationalism.

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As a soldier there are certain things that come to mind with regard to conscription.

1. Although some conscript armies are fairly skilled they still rely on a corps of professionals to make it all work. There is no such thing as a purely conscripted force. In the end the Conscript = cannon fodder and the skilled trades and backbone (leadership) of the unskilled trades rely on a professional troops.

2. In the Canadian Forces it takes about 1.5 years to produce a "trained" armoured Trooper. The period of conscription for most armies is between 2 and 3 years. So by the time the soldier is trained he has already served 3/4 to 1/2 of his service... He does not and will not ever become as proficient as the volunteer.

3. Weapons systems continue to get more and more sophisticated requiring a higher and higher level of training.

From a political/philosophical POV:

1. The populace that does not think it necessary to support the freedoms it enjoys through voluntary service does not deserve to enjoy the freedoms it has.

2. If you have to force people to support the state then the state does not deserve to exist.

3. When it comes down to bullets and bayonets you can not force a man to fight for his country, this is true if he volunteers or if he is forced to volunteer, though obviously more so for the latter.

Conscription is a tool of the statist, of the nationalist and of the tyrant. It has no place in the lives of free men on in the ideals of a country founded on the principal of individual rights... ever.

If a nation is going to exist to champion individual rights first and foremost, then it must do so with not only the consent of the governed but with their action and will as well.

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What about the question "_Should_ an Israeli join the Israeli army?".

Maybe, maybe not. I can't say, I live on the other side of the planet, so it wouldn't be exactly right for me to give advice to a young Israeli I've never met on what to do with such an important choice. It depends on his or her particular plans, goals, values, circumstances. If they have to serve by law, then it's probably best just to do their stint and try to get the posititon they like.

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1. The populace that does not think it necessary to support the freedoms it enjoys through voluntary service does not deserve to enjoy the freedoms it has.

2. If you have to force people to support the state then the state does not deserve to exist.

--

As to (1) - I have a problem with the army. It is fundamentally totalitarian. They try to use totalitarian structures to protect freedom.

Then again, I do not want to kill people.

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1. The populace that does not think it necessary to support the freedoms it enjoys through voluntary service does not deserve to enjoy the freedoms it has.

2. If you have to force people to support the state then the state does not deserve to exist.

--

As to (1) - I have a problem with the army. It is fundamentally totalitarian. They try to use totalitarian structures to protect freedom.

Then again, I do not want to kill people.

Ever been in the army? I find that a good deal of what people "believe" about the army (without ever having served or thought of serving) is little more than leftist kool-aid.

The army of a properly governed nation would be just about as much about "killing people" (with all the indiscriminate floating abstractions pumped into that loaded sentence) as the US government is interested in spending less money.

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I am in Israel; if I go to the army, I am not free. If I do not go, I am a free rider.

well that's nothing but your life and at least psyche -soul- at stake!!! , the obvious moral choice is not to go. Of course to render that decision even more roundly moral you'd have to consequently migrate to a country in the New World where 2/3 of Israel live.

what is the highest value if not life

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...the obvious moral choice is not to go.

I don't see how that's obvious at all. It depends on how much defending his country means to him, and how much he would be willing to risk for it. "Holding one's life as one's highest value" doesn't always mean taking the safer route, especially when some particular value that's very important to you is at stake.

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I don't see how that's obvious at all. It depends on how much defending his country means to him, and how much he would be willing to risk for it. "Holding one's life as one's highest value" doesn't always mean taking the safer route, especially when some particular value that's very important to you is at stake.

I was replying specifically to samr based on this

I am in Israel; if I go to the army, I am not free. If I do not go, I am a free rider.

samr says the army is totalitarian, that he doesn't want to kill people, and that he certainly wouldn't be free if he undergoes conscription, which I can perfectly understand.

Based on the above the defense of Israel probably doesn't depend on such unmotivated recruits. Maybe in case of emergency samr might make a better researcher for a better place for him and his loved ones to live than a good soldier in the middle of the worst most brutal two continents of this planet.

I'd say that'd be the most obviously egoist way for this specific user to act, based on the little information given.

so let's just ask the question,

@samr what do you value more your fatherland or your freedom. what do you value more your actual country of residence or the trouble of migrating to one of the myriad of countries where most of the Nation of Israel already lives without having to undergo conscription, like Canada, USA, Brazil, Argentina, Australia.....

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I was replying specifically to samr based on this

samr says the army is totalitarian, that he doesn't want to kill people, and that he certainly wouldn't be free if he undergoes conscription, which I can perfectly understand.

Based on the above the defense of Israel probably doesn't depend on such unmotivated recruits. Maybe in case of emergency samr might make a better researcher for a better place for him and his loved ones to live than a good soldier in the middle of the worst most brutal two continents of this planet.

I'd say that'd be the most obviously egoist way for this specific user to act, based on the little information given.

so let's just ask the question,

@samr what do you value more your fatherland or your freedom. what do you value more your actual country of residence or the trouble of migrating to one of the myriad of countries where most of the Nation of Israel already lives without having to undergo conscription, like Canada, USA, Brazil, Argentina, Australia.....

I do not value my fatherland much. However, it might be that I will be forced to live in it for economic reasons, or do not have the courage to immigrate to another one. What am I to do in such a case?

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I do not value my fatherland much. However, it might be that I will be forced to live in it for economic reasons, or do not have the courage to immigrate to another one. What am I to do in such a case?

First of all, do not say "forced to live in it for economic reasons." No one is forcing you to do anything. I think that you mean, "I lack the money to move," or "I do not know how I will make money if I move," neither of which is insurmountable. Choosing to be sharper in the way that you interpret reality will help you regardless of your particular circumstances. Be precise with your thoughts and words.

Second, if lacking courage is acceptable to you, then you have already made your decision, and nothing said here will help you to change your mind.

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I think the question of my reasons to stay in Israel is secondary. Suppose I indeed stay in Israel because of cowardice, and lack of economic opportunity, and a lack of skills. Do you think it is relevant for the decision?

The question is - in case I do stay, what is the right choice? On one hand, I think I deserve the freedom of not going to the army. On the other hand, I do not deserve the "freedom" of being a free rider, or of committing an unjust act.

It seems to me a contradiction - what cannot exist according to objectivism.

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I think the question of my reasons to stay in Israel is secondary. Suppose I indeed stay in Israel because of cowardice, and lack of economic opportunity, and a lack of skills. Do you think it is relevant for the decision?

The question is - in case I do stay, what is the right choice? On one hand, I think I deserve the freedom of not going to the army. On the other hand, I do not deserve the "freedom" of being a free rider, or of committing an unjust act.

It seems to me a contradiction - what cannot exist according to objectivism.

So you should question all of those premises and stop treating the issue so rationalistically.

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I do not value my fatherland much. However, it might be that I will be forced to live in it for economic reasons, or do not have the courage to immigrate to another one. What am I to do in such a case?

I think only you can make that choice, as we do not know you or your situation allowing strangers on the internet to decide a major life choice would be no better, if not worse, than flipping a coin.

If you can not emigrate then I suggest you serve as a non combatant, such as a medic, if it is possible.

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2046, what do you mean by a rationalistic treatment?

rdrdrdrd, you are right. More to say, my actual situation is more complex than the one I have described, and there are some factors I did not admit.

However, perhaps you can treat this not as a personal question, but as a scenario. I hope to resolve my personal dilemma by resolving the conflict of values - my personal freedom vs. fairness and equality of all citizens.

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2046, what do you mean by a rationalistic treatment?

rdrdrdrd, you are right. More to say, my actual situation is more complex than the one I have described, and there are some factors I did not admit.

However, perhaps you can treat this not as a personal question, but as a scenario. I hope to resolve my personal dilemma by resolving the conflict of values - my personal freedom vs. fairness and equality of all citizens.

I mean you seem to be treating it as a word game between competing propositions totally disconnected from your actual circumstances and what you want out of life. Contradictions obviously do exist, namely in the minds of people who are confused. Since you appear to have arrived at one, then you must question all of the premises involved.

1. Of course your reasons for wanting to stay in Israel are absolutely relevant, you should not dismiss them. The situation is a lot more complicated than just "Oh hey I should leave." Maybe you should, maybe you shouldn't, but the point is that it is not as simple as you and the other guy posting are making it seem like "do you love your fatherland or your freedom?" What a ridiculous way to approach something very complicated.

2. You do deserve the freedom to not be drafted, and you have every right to object to it and avoid it if necessary for achieving your goals, but that may not necessarily mean it would be a good idea to just up and leave the country.

3. And we've already explained why not joining up does not make you a free rider, and does not mean you're doing anything wrong, and doesn't make you a coward. I don't know why you keep on insisting that would be the case. What in the world does this have to do with "fairness and equality of all citizens"? What does that even mean? To hell with fairness, we're talking about your life and future here.

The question should be one of deciding what your long-term goals are, and whether or not they can be served by leaving the country, whether you even can leave the country, or otherwise avoid the draft, or if you would be better off just sucking it up and doing the stint and getting it over with. Nobody here knows enough about you and your situation to tell you what to do, only you can decide.

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Well, we might be able to imagine such a scenario where refusing to volunteer would be that you are being a "free rider" off the national defense, and you may be condemned morally for doing so. But again, if you have a right to do X, then this would establish a moral prohibition against other people violating one’s right to do X. It doesn't mean that it is necessarily virtuous or good to do X, just that other people have no right to prevent you from doing it via physical aggression.

So, I understand you to say that a person should have the freedom to act immoraly.

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So, I understand you to say that a person should have the freedom to act immoraly.

Right. This is due to the relationship between freedom and virtue, that you need to be able to act on your conscience. So I'm also saying that not wanting to be drafted isn't necessarily immoral.

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