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Totally agree with what Grames has been arguing.

Bitcoins seem to be a pyramid scheme, form the computer standpoint, they are using your processing power for something and it is very sketchy. I won't waste my power and time computing something where I don't know what its doing or where it came from/

I don't see how it's a pyramid scheme. They don't offer a type of product that needs to be propogated to more buyers in order for you to profit. According to their method the GPU will use its power to solve complex math problems. The idea of which is to emulate a natural resource (like gold/silver). So the Bitcoins can be "mined" and brought into existence but only in a limited manner that takes a difficult process to acquire.

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If you are suggesting the Peikoff's stand on immigration is based on the notion that governments ought to be controlling immigration (except where security is threatened) then you are misrepresenting him. Peikoff and many other Objectivists think that this is an area where one infringement of rights (the welfare state) has necessitated another. Though I disagree with this view, it is wrong to describe it as though their political theory calls for government intervention in this area.

I am not suggesting that don't worry.

On a side note, I have found precisely zero people on this forum who agree with Peikoff on this issue. I find this strange to say the least.

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On a side note, I have found precisely zero people on this forum who agree with Peikoff on this issue. I find this strange to say the least.

You haven't searched enough, because immigration has often been a heated topic here.

Coincidentally, I am on Peikoff's side on that one.

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The fact that criminals CAN use BitCoins to do immoral/illegal things ( many of those illegal things are not things which have a good reason to be illegal, though I think this has been pointed out already) is not a reason to violate all the rights of all those innocent people that wish to use it for all sorts of valid (valid, not necceasirly advisable reasons, though many possibly reasonable uses for BitCoins have been provided) reasons. Almost anything CAN be used in a way which violates rights, but that does not justify violating the rights of everyone else just because some people wish to break the law / violate rights.

"On a side note, I have found precisely zero people on this forum who agree with Peikoff on this issue. I find this strange to say the least."

Rather besides the point as implied. What does it matter per se if people do or do not agree with him on this issue? The users here worth their salt do not care what Peikoff has to say on any matter, unless they able to rationally convince themselves that Peikoff has a point.

If you are not suggesting what it has been suggested that you are suggesting, what ARE you suggesting then? I am not sure that it is clear...

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That is not. You don't need further justification for not acting than that you don't understand it.

I would say that if from your understanding of something it seems to be a pyramid scheme or a trap that would be a rational reason to stay away from it would it not?

I don't see how it's a pyramid scheme. They don't offer a type of product that needs to be propogated to more buyers in order for you to profit. According to their method the GPU will use its power to solve complex math problems. The idea of which is to emulate a natural resource (like gold/silver). So the Bitcoins can be "mined" and brought into existence but only in a limited manner that takes a difficult process to acquire.

It rewards people who come earlier in the game, the algorithms they use gradually become harder to solve, by their own admission, and once they reach a certain number of bit coins the supply will no longer grow. I would bet that the founders of bit coin mined many of them early on to keep till the supply stopped, or just programmed themselves more "money" to start with. That is another reason I don't like the idea, it has no real value and is totally fiat, and a savvy hacker could destroy the entire system. This is different from say online banks where they are usually backed by cash reserves and have a very vested interest in keeping their data safe, with thousands of security workers monitoring the system, i doubt these levels of protection exist for bit coin.

While I don't like the idea, I still think it should be legal as I don't see what harm it can do to you unless you choose to participate.

Edited by rdrdrdrd

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I would say that if from your understanding of something it seems to be a pyramid scheme or a trap that would be a rational reason to stay away from it would it not?

Yes, but your understanding of bitcoin is defective. Classifying bitcoin as a "pyramid scheme or trap" is not an objective evaluation based on actual features of the bitcoin system, because it has no features of a pyramid scheme.

It rewards people who come earlier in the game,
Early investors always profit the most, that is not a essential distinguishing feature of a pyramid scheme. An actual pyramid scheme involves sending actual money to someone else. Bitcoin mining does not involve sending money to other people. Bitcoin exchanging does, but if you get in and out quickly there is minimal risk of losing value during your transaction and a minimal possibility of gaining.

Whether or not the early adopters and advocates make any return on their investment of time and money has nothing to do with you. Bitcoin mining is already only rewarding for specialists and is not what most people are going to find useful about it. Your objections have to do with bitcoin as an investment. Fine, don't invest in it. It is very speculative as investment, and is mysterious as a long term store of value. The only use and value is as a tool of exchange. If you don't need it, then you don't need it.

the algorithms they use gradually become harder to solve, by their own admission, and once they reach a certain number of bit coins the supply will no longer grow. I would bet that the founders of bit coin mined many of them early on to keep till the supply stopped, or just programmed themselves more "money" to start with.
Whoever came up with such a good idea ought to benefit from it, that is simple justice. There is no other way to profit from the innovation of the block chain algorithm that makes bitcoin possible.

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Grames, what do you think of the Silk Road, and do you think it should be shut down?

I don't think much about the Silk Road because I don't do drugs. I am against the stupid and useless "War on Drugs".

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I don't think much about the Silk Road because I don't do drugs. I am against the stupid and useless "War on Drugs".

I am also against the "War on Drugs". I also don't do drugs. But it is clear to me that the ONLY and STATED purpose of the Silk Road is to buy contraband. It should be shut down.

I ask you about this because you avoided the Silk Road issue in the above discussion which to me is the main issue here. That is what gives Bitcoins value. So I invite you to think about the Silk Road.... do you think it should be shutdown?

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This is my last post on this topic. I have noticed that a lot of Objectivists are libertarians/anarchists/gun nuts/. I've just had a discussion in the chat where I've been defending Peikoffs anti-immigration viewpoint. It seems that people here cannot accept that it is RIGHT to promote government intervention in certain contexts.

Out.

Continuous postings.

:thumbsup:

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:thumbsup:

Erm, as you can see I am enquiring specifically about the Silk Road now. Before it was Bitcoin in isolation. Nice contentful post you made there though, well done.

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The Silk Road is not the only thing to give bitcoins value. They can also be used for gambling and buying alpaca wool socks.

OK, but what is your opinion on the Silk Road? You say you don't think about it, but I invite you to think about it. Do you think it should be banned? Or regulated? Or is it fine and should be left alone?

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I am also against the "War on Drugs". I also don't do drugs. But it is clear to me that the ONLY and STATED purpose of the Silk Road is to buy contraband. It should be shut down.

Another purpose = honey trap.

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OK, but what is your opinion on the Silk Road? You say you don't think about it, but I invite you to think about it. Do you think it should be banned? Or regulated? Or is it fine and should be left alone?

It already is banned, what they sell is illegal. Apparently you want to ban bitcoin, ban Tor, ban the internet, ban computers and then nuke the site from orbit just to be sure. That is an overreaction.

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It already is banned, what they sell is illegal. Apparently you want to ban bitcoin, ban Tor, ban the internet, ban computers and then nuke the site from orbit just to be sure. That is an overreaction.

The Silk Road is a platform which has not been banned. 99% of what people sell on it has been banned though. I ask again, do you think the Silk Road should be banned?

PS. I want to ban bitcoin, not any of those other things.

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The Silk Road is a platform which has not been banned. 99% of what people sell on it has been banned though. I ask again, do you think the Silk Road should be banned?

PS. I want to ban bitcoin, not any of those other things.

There should not be drug control in the first place. Silk Road already is banned as much as it can be banned without unjust overreaching. Bitcoins is just another tool, the same as all those other things I listed. If your threshold for banning something is that it merely be useful in the commission of a crime then there is no principled limit to banning everything until we are naked. Banning everything still would not stop crime.

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There should not be drug control in the first place. Silk Road already is banned as much as it can be banned without unjust overreaching. Bitcoins is just another tool, the same as all those other things I listed. If your threshold for banning something is that it merely be useful in the commission of a crime then there is no principled limit to banning everything until we are naked. Banning everything still would not stop crime.

Shall I take your answer to mean that you think the Silk Road shouldn't be banned?

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Shall I take your answer to mean that you think the Silk Road shouldn't be banned?

What does "ban Silk Road" mean anyway? How can you possibly make it stop without destroying more than you should, initiating force? It is not the case that banning bitcoin would even slow down Silk Road because they can use plain old cash though the mail, WOW gold transfers, or a hundred other things.

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What does "ban Silk Road" mean anyway? How can you possibly make it stop without destroying more than you should, initiating force? It is not the case that banning bitcoin would even slow down Silk Road because they can use plain old cash though the mail, WOW gold transfers, or a hundred other things.

I am not a technical person but I guess banning Silk Road would involve the authorities taking control of the domain name, after getting permission first by a court of law.

I don't want to consider Bitcoin for the time being, I am trying to specifically gain your view on the Silk Road. Should I take your answers to mean that you think the Silk Road shouldn't be banned?

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Mr. non-technical person, what you guess at is impossible because there is no domain name. Read up on how TOR and Onion Routing works, a fully anonymous encrypted data transport protocol including a separate domain name system and the whole is itself a peer to peer protocol which no central control point. The whole thing is already internationally implemented. All the court orders in the world are completely useless.

The Silk road is already banned and they continue to operate in defiance of the law. Piling court orders on top of the laws accomplish nothing, but people are going to try anyway. I do not have an objection to attempting to enforce the existing law. I do have an objection to the Wesley Mouches of law enforcement demanding ever more authority in an attempt to make inherently unworkable laws work anyway.

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Mr. non-technical person, what you guess at is impossible because there is no domain name. Read up on how TOR and Onion Routing works, a fully anonymous encrypted data transport protocol including a separate domain name system and the whole is itself a peer to peer protocol which no central control point. The whole thing is already internationally implemented. All the court orders in the world are completely useless.

The Silk road is already banned and they continue to operate in defiance of the law. Piling court orders on top of the laws accomplish nothing, but people are going to try anyway. I do not have an objection to attempting to enforce the existing law. I do have an objection to the Wesley Mouches of law enforcement demanding ever more authority in an attempt to make inherently unworkable laws work anyway.

Then the only solution is to require Tor to log all of its users ie. names and addresses available for law enforcement inspection, and to require Tor to restrict access to illegal websites (such as SilkRoad, child porn sites, terrorist websites, etc).

I do not think this is an unworkable law, or an overstepping of power. This is the police protecting people from terrorism, child porn, contraband, etc.

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Then the only solution is to require Tor to log all of its users ie. names and addresses available for law enforcement inspection, and to require Tor to restrict access to illegal websites (such as SilkRoad, child porn sites, terrorist websites, etc).

There is no such entity referred to by the name of TOR that can be subject to the law or required to do anything. TOR is a technology, a method of manipulating bits. As a method it is primarily an abstraction put into the form of computer instructions. Perhaps the military and CIA funding for the organization developing TOR can be removed but the idea is already known well enough to keep it alive by other developers and the source code is open for all to read.

Looking over the project's sponsor list we see that BBG.gov is a million dollar plus level sponsor for the last three years. BBG.gov is a U.S. government agency called the Broadcasting Board of Governors having some relationship to the Voice of America and other "Radio Free (Country X)" projects America funds. Their employees are government employees in the Federal civil service. Today they are advertising five job openings at the GS-11 and GS-13 level. The same government can both fund a "war on drugs" and subsidize the efforts of drug dealers. The contradiction should be resolved by halting the "war on drugs".

I do not think this is an unworkable law, or an overstepping of power. This is the police protecting people from terrorism, child porn, contraband, etc.

It is fundamentally wrong to understand the role of the police or the government as a whole as protecting. That is a consequence of what the government does, but not the method it may employ. The only method permissible to government and its agents is retaliation for objectively demonstrated rights violations, retaliation that can only be justly directed at particular individuals and not entire classes and collectives of people (i.e. people who use TOR or bitcoin without violating rights).

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