argive99 Posted November 23, 2004 Report Share Posted November 23, 2004 Is there a similarity between the way the media is denouncing this poor marine for shooting the wounded Iraqi in Faluja who was feigning death and the way the media is denouncing the basketball players who fought the fans in the Indiana - Detroit game a few days ago. To me it seems the issue for both cases is the popular media's disdain for self defense. In Urban warfare there is no time to ask questions first and then shoot. To condemn this marine for taking steps to defend his life is pure altuistic hatred for self interest. In the basketball game, the fans threw beer at the players. This has been going on for years in multiple sports. The players got fed up and fought back. I can't say I blame them. I think David Stern and the NBA are scapegoating the players and making nothing but a bunch of "role mode" speeches to appease the liberal sports media which by the way have been vicously attacking the NBA as the "slaves of corporate interests." It sickens me. Do others agree with this reasoning. I'm curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopeful Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 I do not see a close similarity. From what I saw of the video, the can of Coke didn't hit the player who reacted. It seemed to hit the coach he was talking to. This angered the player. He jumped into the crowd and boxed the wrong person. A general ruckus ensued. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuromancer Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 basketball players are entertainers playing a sport that has no point or value in the first place. They should consider themselves lucky that they are where they are making money for what they do. That "player" beat up a customer. For making the kind of money for what they do, they should have to let all of the fans sucker punch them on the way out of the arena. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
argive99 Posted November 24, 2004 Author Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 neuromancer: your post sounds like a leftist assault on money and property. Why should the athletes consider themselves "lucky"? Do you consider yourself lucky every day at your job? The NBA players earned their roles on the rosters and their wealth, there's nothing "lucky" about it (unless you want to say that they are lucky to be very tall). Your's is the kind of reasoning dominating the leftist sports media. I'm sick of it. I don't consider it relevant to the issue of the fight. hopeful: Your point is well taken. The coke didn't directly hit Ron Artes. Artes and the rest of the players could have simply pointed to security and had the fans removed from the game. I'll admit his reaction was emotionalist and uncontrolled but I still feel the fans bear the responsibility. For too long I have watched this uncontrolled rage brewing among sports fans. This year in Baseball, a outfielder on the Dodger's got into a fight with some fan's in the bleachers who threw something at him. Last year a father and son amongst the spectators ran out on the field of a baseball game and tackled the 1st base coach. At a Cleveland Browns football game last season, the game had to be stopped because the fans were throwing beer bottles at the players in the end zone. And fan/player fights are all too common in professional Hockey. My guess is that the leftist media has stirred up alot of this anger with their all too predictable class warfare rhetoric. In sports it take the exact form of neuromancer's post, ie "who the hell are these athletes to make millions of dollars when we the little people fans only make chump change by comparison. They should take all our guilt inducing crap and swallow it with a smile on their face." In this situation, even though the players acted like hooligans, I side with them over the fans or the cowards at league headquartes (David Stern types). Unless I can be proven wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuromancer Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 LoL They are lucky that the arenas are filled with so many people that have nothing better to do than watch a bunch of dummies run around. It makes me sick that so many peoples lives revolve around sports. It just goes to show where this country is headed. It is relevant to the issue of the fight because the players are entertainers who have to deal with fans on a nightly basis. They should demonstrate self control in situations like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Rexton Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 LoL They are lucky that the arenas are filled with so many people that have nothing better to do than watch a bunch of dummies run around. It makes me sick that so many peoples lives revolve around sports. It just goes to show where this country is headed. It is relevant to the issue of the fight because the players are entertainers who have to deal with fans on a nightly basis. They should demonstrate self control in situations like that. I'm no sportsfan myself, but your sweeping generalization that basketball players are nothing more than "a bunch of dummies run[ning] around" is unjustified and has no basis. Sports proper does offer a rational value to the players as well as the spectators. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuromancer Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 If one were too look at this situation from a purely capitalist point of view, then the players are wrong. The employer, the NBA, clearly does not want its employees assaulting the fans, the customers, because it would result in a loss of ticket sales. If the NBA announces that players are not allowed to touch, assault or approach a fan then the player has two choices: comply or quit. None of the "I was assaulted so I have the right to fight back" arguments have any bearing in this situation. The only way this would be a factor is if the player assaulted the fan and was then fired or quit, in accordance to the agreement. Remember, under capitalism there is an agreemnet between the employer and the employee, if one or the other doesn't like the agreement, they can always part ways. So yes the Artest was lucky in this situation because he was onlt suspended. If one now looks at this situation from an Objectivist Pont of View, then the whole sports industry should be condemned. Sports are just another outlet for the "bread and circus" crowd that dominates our culture. Although I will conceed that this is an unavoidable fact of the human race, it should be up to people like us in this forum to understand the fact. The NBA id the Daily Banner, The owners are Gail Wynands, and the players and anyone else involved is an assortment of Toohey's clique. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tommyedison Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 If one now looks at this situation from an Objectivist Pont of View, then the whole sports industry should be condemned. Sports are just another outlet for the "bread and circus" crowd that dominates our culture. Although I will conceed that this is an unavoidable fact of the human race, it should be up to people like us in this forum to understand the fact. The NBA id the Daily Banner, The owners are Gail Wynands, and the players and anyone else involved is an assortment of Toohey's clique. Even from an Objectivist Point of View, sports do not only involve brawn, they involve the mind too. I don't see why sports should be condemned. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuromancer Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 Even from an Objectivist Point of View, sports do not only involve brawn, they involve the mind too. I don't see why sports should be condemned. Remember what Franciso's reaction to sports was? He asks: Whats the point? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Godless Capitalist Posted November 24, 2004 Report Share Posted November 24, 2004 neuromancer, do you really not see the incredible skill and dedication required to play sports at a professional level? I have little interest in pro sports, but I can certainly admire the talent of the players and understand why many people do enjoy pro sports. What's wrong with that? As for "what's the point?," one may as well ask what the point is of admiring art, or reading novels, etc. (I'd like to see the source of that quote by the way.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgessLau Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 Remember what Franciso's reaction to sports was? He asks: Whats the point? Who is Francisco? Are you referring to Francisco D'Anconia in Atlas Shrugged? Where in that novel did he say, "Whats [sic] the point?" Please cite the location of that alleged question. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuromancer Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 I conceed that I confused the quote from the book. Francisco is never directly asked about sports. And he asks "what for" "about any activity proposed to him." I apologize for not doing my homework before responding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Som Guy Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 I conceed that I confused the quote from the book. Francisco is never directly asked about sports. And he asks "what for" "about any activity proposed to him." I apologize for not doing my homework before responding. Yes, but the point of sports is to admire the strength and skill of men as they compete agaisnt one another. The types of feats they achieve are amazing and show the highest point of man in the field of physical power and speed, not to mention skill. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuromancer Posted November 25, 2004 Report Share Posted November 25, 2004 I understand this point. But when the advertisements during the game are catering to man's lowest vices, liquor, women, gambling, is this what the spectators are really enjoying? Have you witnessed first hand the throngs of people pouring out of a stadium after their team has won a championship and rioted? Using a sporting victory as an excuse to act out their lowest impulses and destroying thousands of dollars of propery? I have, and it is the perfect representation of man at his worst. If the audience were there to admire the players for their competitive spirit and will to win, would they behave in such a way? I would hope that they wouldn't. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Betsy Posted November 26, 2004 Report Share Posted November 26, 2004 If one now looks at this situation from an Objectivist Pont of View, then the whole sports industry should be condemned. Most Objectivists disagree. For another point of view, see "In Praise of Spectator Sports" by Thomas A. Bowden [The Objectivist Forum, August 1983, Pages 8 - 13] and the following essays on the Ayn Rand Institute web site: The Joy of Football: The Super Bowl Offers a Too-Rare Celebration of Goal-Achievement Monday January 22, 2001 By: Thomas A. Bowden http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5380 The Lure of Baseball Thursday October 24, 2002 By: Thomas A. Bowden Baseball's World Series offers a too-rare celebration of goal-achievement. http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7897 Michael Jordan Has the Soul of a Champion Thursday January 15, 1998 In an open letter to Michael Jordan, originally published in The Intellectual Activist, Ayn Rand ... http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=7561 Who Are Our Heroes? Wednesday June 14, 2000 By: Robert W. Tracinski During NBA Playoffs Ask What Type of Hero We Should Be Applauding http://www.aynrand.org/site/News2?page=NewsArticle&id=5260 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Free Capitalist Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 There should be a thread "Here come the Rationalists" right along with the "Here come the Christians" (in regard to neuromancer). Sports as an activity came out of Ancient Greece as a way to celebrate the beauty of human form, the moral qualites required to achieve physical excellence, and to reward men who personify this spirit to the greatest degree (usually by rewarding those who are good enough to win the particular sporting events). Argive, apologies for thread hijacking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BurgessLau Posted November 28, 2004 Report Share Posted November 28, 2004 Some sports fans (and athletes) act like thugs. Concluding from that that sports as a field is corrupt is to make an error in logic: the fallacy of hasty generalization. Rightly, athletes are an inspiration in our hero-starved world. On the other hand, rejecting an error in logic about sports in general does not justify ignoring the thuggery of some fans. I fully sympathize with neuromancer's horror at what he has seen: a mob of second-handers running amuck. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuromancer Posted November 30, 2004 Report Share Posted November 30, 2004 Thank you Burgess for showing that I am not the only one who sees this. The other posters who disagree fail to realize that I am fully aware and understand that great atheletes are heroes. But for Artest is being a great basketball player an end in itself? I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Rexton Posted December 2, 2004 Report Share Posted December 2, 2004 Thank you Burgess for showing that I am not the only one who sees this. The other posters who disagree fail to realize that I am fully aware and understand that great atheletes are heroes. But for Artest is being a great basketball player an end in itself? I doubt it. You should have been more careful in your choice of words then, for they implied something contrary to "[full] aware[ness] and understand[ing] that great athletes are heroes": "They are lucky that the arenas are filled with so many people that have nothing better to do than watch a bunch of dummies run around. It makes me sick that so many peoples lives revolve around sports. It just goes to show where this country is headed." (underlined and bolded by me) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
the tortured one Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 believe it or not, Sportsmen are technically businessmen. They are preforming a service in exchange for money. They are members of the persecuted minority. sure you can say sports are pointless in a sense that they aren't essential to life, but neither are fancy cars, big plasma screen TVs, and candy bars. That doesn't mean we need to deprive ourselves and others of being able to have them, nor does that mean they lack value. I know the point you are trying to make, that some of them act like assholes. Then again, there are alot of traditional white collared businessmen who act like assholes too, but that doesn't mean all businessmen are bad. anyway, back on topic, I find myself sympathizing with the players. Too many people feel that because they paid their ticket they are entitled to (have a right) to do what they want. You know, that type of person when he gets upset he stands up and shouts "it's my right to blah blah." Having looked at the way he lunged at the person I am willing to bet cash the person said something derogatory, perhaps calling him a N*gger or something disgusting like that. I'm not saying the players should escape punishment, I just don't buy it that it was a bunch of thugs assaulting poor ole innocent bystanders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neuromancer Posted December 7, 2004 Report Share Posted December 7, 2004 believe it or not, Sportsmen are technically businessmen. They are preforming a service in exchange for money. They are members of the persecuted minority. Read my earlier reply, you just made the same point I did. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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