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Ever feel alone due to objective views?

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I can't speak on behalf of anyone besides myself. What I will say though is that lately I've been thinking about me as a person. I do my absolute best to do my research before buying products, I do my best to actually read about things which interest me. I find myself in some ways isolated from a lot of society. I really don't care about Kim Kardashain or whatever her name is, and if it wasn't for peoples incessant babbling about her, I wouldn't know who Paris Hilton is either.

I do my absolute best to have real interest such as programming or even video games and find interesting things. While the educational merit of video games can be debated, I personally feel that is a better use of my time to be solving puzzles in portal 2 than watching "jersey shore" mindlessly.

The problem with all of this is I am a bit introverted to begin with and I do my absolute best to use logic to solve problems, rather than just getting emotional and believing there is no solution, or it's someone else's responsibility to fix any given problem.

This seems to really not fly with my friends for some reason. Most people I meet seem to really believe that logic is completely irrelevant. I mean, on facebook the other day.. My friend posted one of those "Senate leaders make X a year, president, makes X a year, I know where we need to cut the budget!" And one of her friends responded, "Why doesn't everyone just put half their salary in the treasury for one year, that would fix the deficit!". So I responded something along the lines of "Well, I'm not quite sure what your talking about. If your referring to the congress people and politicians, half of all their salaries combined wouldn't put a dent in our debt. If you are referring to everyone in America, that idea would ruin the U.S. economy, because people will adopt a mentality of 'I'm only getting half the pay, I'll only do half the work" And my friend.. who made the status update outright deleted my post and sent me a text saying I was rude. The person suggesting we put all of the money in the U.S. economy was a full grown woman.. and my friend more or less after some discussion called me a college age know it all. Also for what it's worth.. the woman who made the post is a republican which I find highly, highly amusing..

Not to just bring up facebook drama, but it seems that a lot of people I know really don't like to think about issues.. And then as soon as we go to have a conversation and they realize that their romantic ideas are wrong, they say "You think your always right!" or "Your a know-it-all!" The problem I have with this is usually.. in these conversations we are discussing something factual that I have done at least *some* research on. I am not an Economist.. I am not a politician but, the lady I made that post towards was a full grown woman, and my friend acted like I was cussing at a little child.

I mean..if people aren't capable of handling the truth.. or having some basic discussion on something they should already realize is a bad idea.. I firmly believe they don't deserve the right to vote. It just seems to be a recurring theme on anything I've done any amount of research on.. Or even things I personally have an Objectivist view on. I mean.. if something doesn't interest you.. That's fine.. However, just because you believe something that can be proven wrong with facts doesn't make me a know it all.. or I have some sort of mislead belief I am always right. I just do my absolute best to use facts and logic along with some research before I get into a discussion..

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I think a lot of people nowadays in Western culture are just lazy... They don't feel the need to improve themselves, so they sit around all day playing video games, watching TV, drinking or doing drugs(nothing against these if in moderation).

We are turning into a culture of couch-potatoism. Entertainment over education.

This makes me sad.

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It does seem like most people these days aren't interested in ideas. However, everyone at this forum is aware of the relatively (relative to our below-stellar American culture) sizable community of people who do care about ideas, namely those interested in Rand's ideas. And, of course, people not interested in ideas are always subject to human change, for the better.

For those not interested in ideas, it seems to be a common response to another's interest in ideas to be, "You're a know-it-all!" That is not the fault of the person interested in ideas, and the best thing to do might be to politely distance yourself from such people. That said, it is also possible that you are coming across as a know-it-all. Meaning, you're giving your own opinion too much emphasis within the context of a conversation with another person, as a habit. Tone and style of communication plays a part. To be sure, this kind of thing is tolerated more by people who like to argue and discuss ideas in-depth, but how you come across to people in general when you talk to them might be something for you to consider.

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It does seem like most people these days aren't interested in ideas. However, everyone at this forum is aware of the relatively (relative to our below-stellar American culture) sizable community of people who do care about ideas, namely those interested in Rand's ideas. And, of course, people not interested in ideas are always subject to human change, for the better.

For those not interested in ideas, it seems to be a common response to another's interest in ideas to be, "You're a know-it-all!" That is not the fault of the person interested in ideas, and the best thing to do might be to politely distance yourself from such people. That said, it is also possible that you are coming across as a know-it-all. Meaning, you're giving your own opinion too much emphasis within the context of a conversation with another person, as a habit. Tone and style of communication plays a part. To be sure, this kind of thing is tolerated more by people who like to argue and discuss ideas in-depth, but how you come across to people in general when you talk to them might be something for you to consider.

My only issue with what I highlighted in bold is there is a major difference between a fact and my own personal opinion.

I suppose one issue I have is as Ayn Rand Said

Reason is not automatic. Those who deny it cannot be conquered by it. Do not count on them. Leave them alone.

And you don't have to look far these days for a topic most people will deny reason on.

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I dont know you obviously, so I can only speculate on how you may come across to others here, but it is *possible* that JASKN is right, though it would seem that you disagree. A somewhat related issue that I used to have ( I learned to be more aware of this and to at least improve on this relatively recently) is that I may come across as more criticial and harsh towards bad ideas than I intended, which may make people more inclined to think that you are dismissing their ideas without sufficent consideration. This would be part of what he meant by "tone" I suppose.

I do agree with the implication that if they simply refuse to accept your arguments because they do not wish to consider t hem, that it is best to avoid dealing with them if possible.

Somewhat related to the title of the thread ( and to point you towards the Ayn Rand Lexicon, a brilliant reference for those new to Objectivism as you apparently are * ) :

"http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/loneliness.html

* Be careful how you use the Lexicon. It is not a replacement for reading Ayn RAnd works obviously, but if you want a quick summary of her views on an issue to help kick-start your own thinking, or just a nice quote from her, it is a great resource.

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Snow_Fox: You are not as alone as you think.

Indeed, you are not as alone as you might think! There are a lot of great thinkers out t here, especially amongst Objectivists! There are lot of of good Objectivists out there not just here but on Facebook ( I have lots of interesting and thoughtful discussions with some of them via FB) and all over the place. If you live in America ( most on this place do, but there is an ever increasing number of members that *dont* ), then I am pretty sure you could find Objectivists in your area eventually....

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JASKN's post is pretty nice for a general response to you.

I do my absolute best to have real interest such as programming or even video games and find interesting things. While the educational merit of video games can be debated, I personally feel that is a better use of my time to be solving puzzles in portal 2 than watching "jersey shore" mindlessly.

Heh, totally agreed. There do seem to be a high proportion of people who enjoy the sort of thing like Jersey Shore probably because there's nothing better to do. That then does absolutely reflect how a lot of people behave without thinking. The trouble here is how do you find the people who do value thinking highly? There isn't much outwardly to identify that, so at times if you would like to get to know anyone new, you have to have some amount of guesswork of whom to talk to. Based on what you said, I don't think you were being condescending at all, you were just providing some facts. I avoid Faceborg altogether whenever possible, so I'm not really familiar with the context you're talking about. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't fret about who is or isn't caring about reason. The "masses" are there, yes, but it's so much more helpful to focus on looking for value rather than focusing on what is a disvalue to you. A forum like this is one way to find values in people (the chatroom here may be worth your time, or actually look around places online where similar-minded people are).

I would bet what you're talking about here is more introversion than anything, and you probably feel lonely because you'd like to speak or get to know people of similar values, especially values highly important to you. I sort of doubt feeling lonely is primarily due to having objective views in this case. If you are introverted in the same way I am, initiating conversation is not the simplest thing to do in the world, and a lot of the time I expect you'd honestly prefer to read a book or contemplate some new idea than talk to someone new. Seeking values that are people causes loneliness to some degree because you would like to share values with someone, and finding people can be a major task if you're introverted to the extent I am.

Just as a mention, there seem to be a high amount of Objectivist-types in California or Texas. I haven't spoken to nearly as many who live on the east coast of the US like me.

Edited by Eiuol
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Welcome, Snow_Fox, from a fellow newbie and another that carefully marches to my own beat.

I came here expecting archly orthodox Objectivism that might at least be silent on topics on which Ayn Rand's leadership is not well documented. But no, so I read and comment a bit, and tersely, and avoid controversy.

I came here from Karl Popper's falsification-ism and his answer to the boundary problem of induction, from which I am not yet dissuaded.

About the thread title question, yes.

Edited by Doug Huffman
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Hello,

I would like to suggest going to a Toastmasters Club.

If you find the correct club it feels like you are arriving home.

At TM you will find a lot of intellectuals willing to discuss ideas.

Reading The Fountainhead Howard Roark seems to more like an introvert than an extrovert.

Howard Roark also does not seem to try and persuade people who don't want to be persuaded of valid points.

Persuading people often is not about having a valid argument but being able to sell your ideas.

Sorry about pushing TM but their you will learn how to do this.

Hope that this helps.

Keep Well,

Andre

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Ever feel alone due to objective views?

Yes, absolutely.

I find the majority of the people around me to be highly irrational in many parts of their lives -- and the closer you look, the more irrationality you often see. Many people also have their entire sense of self value and of their place in the world wrapped up in irrational ideas. Which means, if you challenge them, that you will quickly become an enemy, because you are threatening what they value most about themselves.

Over the years, I've learned to generally keep my mouth shut, especially with family. I do a lot of "head nodding," but often keep my opinion to myself. Even when asked, I don't dive into details. When I do make comments, I try to keep them short and simple. I wish it wasn't that way, but for me, it's partly a survival thing.

To offset that, I've found it very helpful to be involved in things like Objectivist blogs and several of the OList groups. OActivists, for example, can be a great way to express your political and economic opinions to the public, while getting support from other Objectivists. When I first joined ObjectivismOnline.net, I originally hoped it would fit in for me socially somehow, but unfortunately it doesn't. There are of course also a number of in-person social options, but the details depend heavily on where you live.

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I came here from Karl Popper's falsification-ism and his answer to the boundary problem of induction, from which I am not yet dissuaded.

Popper vs. Objectivism is an interesting subject. If you ever start a thread about it, I would be interested in participating.

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Welcome Snow_Fox. I wouldn't be surprised if most Objectivists know what you're talking about. I think the last thing you quoted of Ayn Rand's is definitely something to remember. There's a lot of people out there that don't think, and they won't hesitate to take a negative tone and posture at you if they don't like something you say. But tone and posture is really the only thing they can do against you. (See a fallacy Ayn Rand identified, called Argument from Intimidation. http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/argument_from_intimidation.html )

In your pursuit of ideas, these types of people should be easy to just dismiss as irrational. But occasionally you're probably going to run into people who sound smart, and seem to be capable of advanced thinking methods (because they speak long sentences and use big words), but are really just irrational like the rest of them. They'll run the conversation in circles, jump from one topic to another every time you make a point, disregard context constantly, and put forth non-essentials as counter-arguments. They'll give off an air and tone of intellectual superiority, but they're really just irrational like the rest of them. They're just better at intellectual deception and sleight of hand. If you're incapable of understanding their argument, it isn't a fault of your own. It's that they just don't make sense. I don't know if you're susceptible to this like I was, but don't let these types of people make you think that you're wrong, or that you're incapable of understanding things "at their level".

The Rand quote about leaving irrational people alone is one good piece of advice to remember. Another piece of advice that is becoming important to me is to not misapply your general optimism to those people. IE, don't keep looking for good in someone if they've proven to you that there is none to be found in them. If you think too highly of another person's judgment when they contradict what you know to be true, it'll make you feel like you're incapable of knowing reality and it'll hurt your self esteem.

Edited by Amaroq
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Popper vs. Objectivism is an interesting subject. If you ever start a thread about it, I would be interested in participating.
Are you conversant with The Logic of Scientific Discovery? I would characterize the discussion of Ayn Rand versus (means 'against') Karl Popper or falsification-ism versus Objectivism to better focus the compare and contrast.
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Are you conversant with The Logic of Scientific Discovery?

I'm not an expert, but I've looked into it enough to have an opinion.

I would characterize the discussion of Ayn Rand versus (means 'against') Karl Popper or falsification-ism versus Objectivism to better focus the compare and contrast.

Sure, you could start there. I don't want to hijack this thread, though.

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I dont know you obviously, so I can only speculate on how you may come across to others here, but it is *possible* that JASKN is right, though it would seem that you disagree. A somewhat related issue that I used to have ( I learned to be more aware of this and to at least improve on this relatively recently) is that I may come across as more criticial and harsh towards bad ideas than I intended, which may make people more inclined to think that you are dismissing their ideas without sufficent consideration. This would be part of what he meant by "tone" I suppose.

I do agree with the implication that if they simply refuse to accept your arguments because they do not wish to consider t hem, that it is best to avoid dealing with them if possible.

Somewhat related to the title of the thread ( and to point you towards the Ayn Rand Lexicon, a brilliant reference for those new to Objectivism as you apparently are * ) :

"http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/loneliness.html

* Be careful how you use the Lexicon. It is not a replacement for reading Ayn RAnd works obviously, but if you want a quick summary of her views on an issue to help kick-start your own thinking, or just a nice quote from her, it is a great resource.

Well, I won't entirely disagree. I do realize I can be critical partly, because as the video game critic Yahtzee once said, "People seem to hate critics, because of generally negative views. What they fail to realize is that critics are good! without someone being a critic and saying 'This is a bad idea!' we would all wear boulders on our heads instead of hats until our necks hurt and we had spinal issues" now I did paraphrase it a bit since I don't remember it verbatim. I can be critical of many idea's, situations, and so forth. I however, don't inherently view criticism as a bad thing. I welcome factual proof I am wrong, I welcome a logic more sound than mind and I by nature wantto improve myself. The only way I can become more intelligent is to have my idea's critiqued and proven wrong.

So, being totally honest I won't say that I never come off overly critical or overly negative. I will say that having worked sales in the recent past, I've learned to control a lot of my issues when having conversations. I will also say that in many cases I think people are overly anxious to start a fight, or by immediately having an emotional swing on the subject, they can somehow appeal to pathos.

Also, I've found the lexicon a while back, its part of the reason I have been trying to get my brother to finish Atlas Shrugged so I can hopefully knock it out before school starts. I must admit, I find a lot of what she says to be in line with views before I had ever heard of her. I think one of my favorite parts of her philosophy is the point that the world can and should be objectively examined. A lot of people fail to realize just how illogical they are.

JASKN's post is pretty nice for a general response to you.

Heh, totally agreed. There do seem to be a high proportion of people who enjoy the sort of thing like Jersey Shore probably because there's nothing better to do. That then does absolutely reflect how a lot of people behave without thinking. The trouble here is how do you find the people who do value thinking highly? There isn't much outwardly to identify that, so at times if you would like to get to know anyone new, you have to have some amount of guesswork of whom to talk to. Based on what you said, I don't think you were being condescending at all, you were just providing some facts. I avoid Faceborg altogether whenever possible, so I'm not really familiar with the context you're talking about. In any case, if I were you, I wouldn't fret about who is or isn't caring about reason. The "masses" are there, yes, but it's so much more helpful to focus on looking for value rather than focusing on what is a disvalue to you. A forum like this is one way to find values in people (the chatroom here may be worth your time, or actually look around places online where similar-minded people are).

I would bet what you're talking about here is more introversion than anything, and you probably feel lonely because you'd like to speak or get to know people of similar values, especially values highly important to you. I sort of doubt feeling lonely is primarily due to having objective views in this case. If you are introverted in the same way I am, initiating conversation is not the simplest thing to do in the world, and a lot of the time I expect you'd honestly prefer to read a book or contemplate some new idea than talk to someone new. Seeking values that are people causes loneliness to some degree because you would like to share values with someone, and finding people can be a major task if you're introverted to the extent I am.

Just as a mention, there seem to be a high amount of Objectivist-types in California or Texas. I haven't spoken to nearly as many who live on the east coast of the US like me.

I would disagree with you somewhat. While I don't deny always having been to some degree an introvert. I have over the past several years, actually really improved my flirting, conversational, and social skills over all. I think the problem that I have, not that it is a major recurring issue would be something more along the lines of people easily getting pushed away. If I seek social interaction, I prefer to not discuss that moron Ryan Dunn who consumed alcohol, sped 160 miles an hour, and died without someone saying "man, that was sad." I tend to avoid a lot of things which are popular, not because I try to avoid the mainstream, but because I'm busy living my life and for the most part enjoying it.

Welcome, Snow_Fox, from a fellow newbie and another that carefully marches to my own beat.

I came here expecting archly orthodox Objectivism that might at least be silent on topics on which Ayn Rand's leadership is not well documented. But no, so I read and comment a bit, and tersely, and avoid controversy.

I came here from Karl Popper's falsification-ism and his answer to the boundary problem of induction, from which I am not yet dissuaded.

About the thread title question, yes.

Nice to meet another newb.

The thing I like about Ayn Rand's philosophy personally is that we don't have to have her exact opinion on every minute detail to draw a reasonable conclusion about her point of view, she has a philosophy not a religion.

Hello,

I would like to suggest going to a Toastmasters Club.

If you find the correct club it feels like you are arriving home.

At TM you will find a lot of intellectuals willing to discuss ideas.

Reading The Fountainhead Howard Roark seems to more like an introvert than an extrovert.

Howard Roark also does not seem to try and persuade people who don't want to be persuaded of valid points.

Persuading people often is not about having a valid argument but being able to sell your ideas.

Sorry about pushing TM but their you will learn how to do this.

Hope that this helps.

Keep Well,

Andre

Actually, not to be argumentative but don't confusion persuasion with trying to convince a person to use logic. You can be persuasive and totally illogical. For that matter.. many people who are incredibly persuasive have little to no reason behind much of their logic.

I mention this, because I can be very persuasive at times particularly when I know the audience.

With all that said, it still sounds like a blast.

Yes, absolutely.

I find the majority of the people around me to be highly irrational in many parts of their lives -- and the closer you look, the more irrationality you often see. Many people also have their entire sense of self value and of their place in the world wrapped up in irrational ideas. Which means, if you challenge them, that you will quickly become an enemy, because you are threatening what they value most about themselves.

Over the years, I've learned to generally keep my mouth shut, especially with family. I do a lot of "head nodding," but often keep my opinion to myself. Even when asked, I don't dive into details. When I do make comments, I try to keep them short and simple. I wish it wasn't that way, but for me, it's partly a survival thing.

To offset that, I've found it very helpful to be involved in things like Objectivist blogs and several of the OList groups. OActivists, for example, can be a great way to express your political and economic opinions to the public, while getting support from other Objectivists. When I first joined ObjectivismOnline.net, I originally hoped it would fit in for me socially somehow, but unfortunately it doesn't. There are of course also a number of in-person social options, but the details depend heavily on where you live.

You touched on a very interesting subject which has come to strike a cord with me. My brother was having a discussion about how he wished he did better on a quiz at his college and got a higher rank in the class. A friend of his responded, "Why compare yourself with others? No one in the entire world can do a better job of being you than you." While she had good intentions that quote is pretty much self defeating, because without comparison to others, there is no individuality.

At any rate, nice to meet you all. I'm hoping to learn a lot while I am here.

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I have over the past several years, actually really improved my flirting, conversational, and social skills over all. I think the problem that I have, not that it is a major recurring issue would be something more along the lines of people easily getting pushed away.

That much is true of me I think. Anyways, more of what I'm getting at is that feeling alone/lonely is more a function of desiring to find like-minded people while knowing that at a current moment in time you have not found those like-minded people. Other than that, the feeling of "aloneness" doesn't really come up; it'd merely be an identification you're not around a lot of people. Introverted or not, the more selective you are about people, the harder it is to fulfill the desire to get to know people. Having objective views typically reflects having standards which you've thought about, further increasing your level of standards.

Edited by Eiuol
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I mean..if people aren't capable of handling the truth..

I used to feel horribly ostracized when i became very outspoken on Ayn Rand's philosophy and applied it everywhere. I've learnt to be more selective, and to adapt to reading in between lines instead of expecting the rest of the world to talk literally.

Sometimes it's more selfish not to say something.

And no, people in general, whether or not they can handle it, they chose not to handle the truth, or to handle as little of it as they can. They even pay (to churches and television networks to handle even less truth.

The reason for this is because being fully aware of the human condition is intolerable. for more information on the psychology beneath it search for "Celia Green" a British admirer of Ayn Rand and her book "the human evasion"

Edited by volco
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Just as a mention, there seem to be a high amount of Objectivist-types in California or Texas. I haven't spoken to nearly as many who live on the east coast of the US like me.

Looking at the distribution of Objectivists by state, the most populous states have the most Objectivists. This just makes sense. There is nothing special about CA and TX. By the 2010 census, the top five states by population in order are: CA, TX, NY, FL, and IL. I haven't looked, but I bet those are also the top 5 Objectivist states? If I had total numbers of Objectivists, it might be amusing to figure out a nationwide average chance to become one, lol.

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  • 6 months later...

This is something I'm recently considering. If I speak my mind, they will get angry. If I speak the truth, they will attack me (verbally mostly). but WHY??....

There's something I realized about human nature and the nature of truth. Human nature is built upon abstractions. There's simply enough not time to evaluate everything nor does everyone have the capacity to question everything (mental capacity, too busy etc). Ignorance is unavoidable. The truth is therefore an inconvenience, a frustration if it contradicts their established set of abstractions (which are probably copied from others via socialization/indoctrination, not critically evaluated).

But in the nature of truth, it forces people to change or at least consider change. But what is most offensive about telling the truth is that it shines a bright light upon their own ignorance, evasions, and other things that they are guilty of. It has a certain coercive nature to it. Therefore, telling someone the truth is a cruel thing to do, regardless of the outcomes. Telling the truth by way of a cartoon or a story makes the medicine go down much easier. Storytellers and fables.

After telling people the bare naked truth for years, I'm tired of being punched in the face. It's just so very tiring and inefficient. Therefore, I will focus my energies on story telling. Same content, different vehicle. Speaking in stories will at least provide an escape to the listener; they can choose to think that the story is not really about them. An easy way for them to choose to accept the truth or not.

Edited by durentu
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A couple things in your post stand out, durentu. It isn't some kind of moral crime to have things which one is ignorant about - it is indeed pretty much inevitable since we are not some undefined thing with unlimited time and capacity for information acquisition and retention. The problem is not being ignorant of something at any point (at least, not as long as this is not something one has to deal with properly on a day to day basis), it is not being willing to recognize one's own ignorance. Having new information put to forward to somebody is not a conflict as long as one does not insist that they already know. It is this opposition to accepting that one has not known something that is the problem and a very fixable one ultimately. It is not our nature as limited beings (not that there is any other kind) that is a problem, it's people's refusal to call a spade a spade, something which is not an inherent feature of human nature. We'd have died out long ago otherwise. People in general are not a lost cause.

That said, one is not obligated to correct every mistake they come across. You don't have to waste your time on the people who refuse to admit to themselves an ignorance about something, especially not if they're going to treat you badly for doing so. It's their bed, they made it, let them lie in it if they insist on doing so anyway. That's their loss primarily, not yours. The truth is, after all, NOT in fact something that can be forced upon a consciousness. It can be forced upon their body by way of physics refusing to bend to their beliefs and them possibly getting maimed or killed for insisting they are right, but not their mind. We do have the capacity for evasion as consciousness our is not automated like our senses are. So, there is no benefit and therefore no moral obligation to spend your time on futile pursuits. Be selective. If you think somebody is open to learning, you may go ahead and try. If not, don't bother. Just don't go actively encouraging anyone's false ideas, saying they are right or have some merit to their claims which they don't.

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