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Oslo Shooting and Bombing

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Hopefully any forum goers from Norway are all right and not involved in any of the events that took place in Oslo today. I don't really have much to bring to the topic but figured it needed a thread. I'm not terribly familiar with the politics in that part of the world. It seems as though the shooter and main suspect of the bombing is being called a right-wing extremist type. But what does this mean in the context of Norway's culture? I haven't yet seen any further specifications released about his motivations. (besides clearly being a psycho)

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''Right-wing'', as of now, is quite undefined and ambiguous. It could really mean anywhere from individualist/capitalist, to fascist/authoritarian. I'm not familiar with what exactly it might mean in regards to Norwegian politics, but do you have any further context that might specify?

He was a christian fundamentalist nationalist. As of now there are 94 confirmed dead. His name is Anders Behring Breivik, age 32.

Apparently, he dressed up as a police man...

It is truly a tragedy.

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I'm not from Norway but close. Over here the term "right-wing extremist" usually means someone who's a racist nationalist.

That's pretty much the same meaning it has everywhere else in the West. This reminds me when that Swedish MP was shot... Olof..

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This is a big propaganda victory for the Left. Now they can equate anyone who disagrees with the socialist/multiculturalist/egalitarian agenda of the Left with being a "far right extremist". With this incident they can say that anti-Left advocates are all potentially violent and thus should be monitored. The true aim of all consistent Leftists is to criminalize non-Leftist thought. This is the totalitarian nature of Leftism becoming more blatant.

This is a dark day for the West in many ways. The Left is stronger because of this atrocity and it will be harder to oppose them.

Edited by Deke
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Yes, let's politicize this tragedy! It's all the fault of the right wing!

Oh no, Leftists are going to stick chips in my brain and monitor me!

Neither of these are true. I've found very few Democrats, in fact not any, that have said that now everyone on the Right is suspect. Let's leave the silly conspiracies to the nutjobs at Info Wars.

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Its highly unlikely that anyone on this forum, or objectivist in general where killed in this massacre, as it was an attack on an isolated island used by the labour party's youth movement (labour party being the socialdemocratic party dominating in Norway, having the primeminister and controling the government ATM).

Still its not a big country and its not like you exclusively socialise with other objectivists - there have been no official lists of casualties published, but im quite certain I know atleast one person who was killed.

The terrorist released the following manifest in English describing his thoughts. His apperantly been planning this by himself over the past nine years.

http://www.2shared.com/document/wfAyaNXV/2083_--_A_European_Declaration.html

He seems to consider himself a single cell in a sort of munk-order, a continuance of the Knights Templars (apperantly restarted in the UK in 2002 by himself and eight others) - devoted to living in poverty and using every avaliable resource to fight for the cause, and be willing to martyr yourself. "Martyrdom before dimmithude" is a direct quote. Basically his political views are anti-Islam and anti-multiculturalism and egalitarianism.

He stresses the importance of hiding your political beliefs and pretending to be much more mainstream then you really are.

His act of terror was partly a way of marketing his manifest (which obviously worked, im even linking to it here), and the presumption on his part being that people would be forced to listen and eventually agree with him (he also has a plan for how the Knights Templars will win by the year 2100).

That someone could hide such extreme plans for nine years without sharing information with anyone is mindboggeling. The result is the biggest massacre performed by one man alone.. Ever?

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Its highly unlikely that anyone on this forum, or objectivist in general where killed in this massacre, as it was an attack on an isolated island used by the labour party's youth movement (labour party being the socialdemocratic party dominating in Norway, having the primeminister and controling the government ATM).

Still its not a big country and its not like you exclusively socialise with other objectivists - there have been no official lists of casualties published, but im quite certain I know atleast one person who was killed.

The terrorist released the following manifest in English describing his thoughts. His apperantly been planning this by himself over the past nine years.

http://www.2shared.com/document/wfAyaNXV/2083_--_A_European_Declaration.html

He seems to consider himself a single cell in a sort of munk-order, a continuance of the Knights Templars (apperantly restarted in the UK in 2002 by himself and eight others) - devoted to living in poverty and using every avaliable resource to fight for the cause, and be willing to martyr yourself. "Martyrdom before dimmithude" is a direct quote. Basically his political views are anti-Islam and anti-multiculturalism and egalitarianism.

He stresses the importance of hiding your political beliefs and pretending to be much more mainstream then you really are.

His act of terror was partly a way of marketing his manifest (which obviously worked, im even linking to it here), and the presumption on his part being that people would be forced to listen and eventually agree with him (he also has a plan for how the Knights Templars will win by the year 2100).

That someone could hide such extreme plans for nine years without sharing information with anyone is mindboggeling. The result is the biggest massacre performed by one man alone.. Ever?

There is at least OKC Bombing.

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Its highly unlikely that anyone on this forum, or objectivist in general where killed in this massacre, as it was an attack on an isolated island used by the labour party's youth movement (labour party being the socialdemocratic party dominating in Norway, having the primeminister and controling the government ATM).

Still its not a big country and its not like you exclusively socialise with other objectivists - there have been no official lists of casualties published, but im quite certain I know atleast one person who was killed.

The terrorist released the following manifest in English describing his thoughts. His apperantly been planning this by himself over the past nine years.

http://www.2shared.com/document/wfAyaNXV/2083_--_A_European_Declaration.html

He seems to consider himself a single cell in a sort of munk-order, a continuance of the Knights Templars (apperantly restarted in the UK in 2002 by himself and eight others) - devoted to living in poverty and using every avaliable resource to fight for the cause, and be willing to martyr yourself. "Martyrdom before dimmithude" is a direct quote. Basically his political views are anti-Islam and anti-multiculturalism and egalitarianism.

He stresses the importance of hiding your political beliefs and pretending to be much more mainstream then you really are.

His act of terror was partly a way of marketing his manifest (which obviously worked, im even linking to it here), and the presumption on his part being that people would be forced to listen and eventually agree with him (he also has a plan for how the Knights Templars will win by the year 2100).

That someone could hide such extreme plans for nine years without sharing information with anyone is mindboggeling. The result is the biggest massacre performed by one man alone.. Ever?

Interesting... although sick. So he is a Christian then?

May I ask where this PDF and its link were sourced from? Thanks for the reply.

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Yes, let's politicize this tragedy! It's all the fault of the right wing!

Oh no, Leftists are going to stick chips in my brain and monitor me!

Neither of these are true. I've found very few Democrats, in fact not any, that have said that now everyone on the Right is suspect. Let's leave the silly conspiracies to the nutjobs at Info Wars.

This statement manifests total ignorance of the political reality of the world in which we live. You must be a 20 something newbie Objectivist that has no life experience if you do not understand the hegemony that the Left has on the culture. Conservatives play second banana to the Left and Objectivism isn't really even on the radar screen yet.(Well, maybe just starting.)

The Left's main aim is to eliminate non-Leftist opposition. That some Democrats are not on board with this does not change the reality of the nature of today's Leftism. We are fortunate in a way that Americans tend to be myopic and uninterested in world events. The Norway massacre might not turn into the Next Leftist media obsession. But rest assured when there is a true "right-wing" mass murderer in America - and that does not include Jared Loughner or Timothy McVeigh who were more in line with anarchism - the Left will milk it for all its worth in an attempt to discredit any opposition to them; whether from white nationalists or Classical Liberals / libertarians / Objectivists. And there WILL be a pissed off Conservative at some point that takes out his gun collection and mows down Leftists just like this Norwegian did (notice he targeted a group of Left-Liberal college age kids). When that day comes (and it will), then we will see the Left move for total censorship of all non-leftist thought. Guaranteed.

Get some more life experience in the real world and understand the culture in which you live. You will do a greater service to yourself and to Objectivism.

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Oo, oo, it's generalization time! Okay, okay, lemme think here for a second...I bet you're a 40 something Objectivist who has forgotten that Rand identified conservatives as the arch political rivals to rational society. You probably listen to Rush Limbaugh and think "Gee, he seems pretty on point.". You probably even have some sympathy for nationalism and anti-Muslim sentiment. This is a fun game! Your turn, buddy!

You arguments are dull, played out and lack any weight beyond your grand standing that the Left is trying to dominate our culture. Well fuck, they probably ARE. So are Conservatives. So are Socialists. That's politics. Your statement is both so self-evidently true to render it pointless to mention or so obviously idiotic to render me speechless. Are you saying that 1) The Left actually has control in America? Because, uh, that's a good one. This country is still predominantly controlled by the Religious. If you're looking for a sect to rant about on the internet in your boxers, pick those guys. The Left is benign and has been for about 20 years.

And, uh, last time I checked, McVeigh was a conservative and a Republican, as well as a practicing Catholic. If you've got some sources to contradict common knowledge, I would like to see them. After OKC, there wasn't some giant crackdown on the right wing. Actually, I think we might have even had a Republican controlled government for a few years there...But what do I know, I'm just some 20-something with no experience. You were there, old man. Tell me about it!

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Interesting... although sick. So he is a Christian then?

May I ask where this PDF and its link were sourced from? Thanks for the reply.

- His a Christian, but it does not seem to influence his writing that much, I've skimmed through a few hundred pages now and its really hard to stop reading. In the end he keeps a diary, speaking of his friends and social life and summing up his preparations for the attack like he was a random posting on an online forum (using smily's, "lol", etc) which makes it quite a disturbing read.

He is certainly dedicated, and mentions how he is selling of his property and ordering high-class escorts for his last few days before the operation (he clearly did not plan on surviving, planning on using his last bullets on the police. But he must have ran out, or changed his mind).

He mentions a network that originated from a Serbian nationalist he meet back in 2002, and how his whole life has revolved around first getting the money he needs, then writing this manifest and then performing the marketing operation. (Even more disturbing, in his log he mentions that his primary plan is to raise 3 mill Euro to start a organisation to promote his ideas. He mentions saving up 500k, and says he will invest half in the stockmarket to try running it up. If that fails, he will use the rest for plan B to promote his manifest. That was the terrorist attack).

He also makes the observation that its a sacrifise and that he would rather raise a family and build a career - but that nobody else will do it if he does not do it. He mentions how all his friends are settling down, while he moves back to his mom to save money for his mission. Alturism at its cruelest it would seem.

He seems quite conscious over how all his friends and family will hate him after this (if he should "wake up in the hospital") and how his life would be utterly horrible from this spot until the "cultural conservative revolutionarys" take power. He estimates this may take 70 years..

The PDF was linked by several on facebook, and should be safe.

I cant read PDFs on this computer and downloaded a wordfile, cant remember where at this moment.

But reading it knowing this guy just killed 80+ people in cold blood by himself makes it a really strong, disturbing and at the same time fascinating read.

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But reading it knowing this guy just killed 80+ people in cold blood by himself makes it a really strong, disturbing and at the same time fascinating read.

The most disturbing part for me is how NOT crazy this guy seems to be. By which I mean that for all purposes he seems to be a functioning person, with some incredibly evil and poisonous ideas he takes very seriously.

He seems to hold the Determinist version of the typical "conservative" idea that cultures are at war with each other over how many little baby followers their culture vs. culture X produces. And he sees Islam as threatening to overtake traditional European Christian culture due to the effects of egalitarianism. Which, frankly has a lot of truth to it. But his response seems to be fighting a dark age crusade with his own religions dark age crusade and apparently murdering dozens of innocents.

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The shooter's motivations seem to be reminiscent of Geert Wilders, who's been noted recently several times in the Objectivist blogosphere for being on trial in The Netherlands for "hate speech" against Muslim immigrants and other related topics:

Geert Wilders Speaks Without Fear in Tennessee (Rule of Reason blog)

Geert Wilders is Not Brave Enough to Be a Coward (The Objective Standard blog)

Geert Wilders: Free at Last? (Rule of Reason blog)

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I read a little bit of it. Up to the 13th page. One thing that struck me as contradictory is the fact that he thinks he's fighting extremism. He defines an ideology as a rigid system that cannot change to match reality, and thus it must convince its followers to abandon the truth to fit what its "truth" is, and will eventually bring about force to make people adhere to its falsehoods. Therefore, all ideology is evil. Then he names multiculturalism/political correctness as an (obviously extremist) ideology. Which of course must be fought by his own ideology of cultural pride/patriotism/whatever. But I don't think he notices that he's made himself a hypocrite defining his terms that way and saying what he says. (That I've read.)

And he of course gets the problem completely ass-backwards. It isn't "extremism" that is the problem, but a lack of a firm ideology that is allowing the Islamization to happen.

So if what little I've read is any indication, this guy is doing even more damage with his actions than I thought. The left will pin his actions on the right win, and on any pro-freedom group such as ourselves. And anyone who takes him seriously will just be spreading even more relativism and/or pragmatism, which will not stop the problem but rather elevate it. You can't fight an extremist ideology with pragmatism. You have to have your own firm ideology to proclaim as superior.

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This is a big propaganda victory for the Left. Now they can equate anyone who disagrees with the socialist/multiculturalist/egalitarian agenda of the Left with being a "far right extremist". With this incident they can say that anti-Left advocates are all potentially violent and thus should be monitored. The true aim of all consistent Leftists is to criminalize non-Leftist thought. This is the totalitarian nature of Leftism becoming more blatant.

This is a dark day for the West in many ways. The Left is stronger because of this atrocity and it will be harder to oppose them.

I just saw that Neal Boortz mentioned this mass murder:

"This seemed to need its own post rather than being tossed in with the reading assignments...

It took an hour and a half for police to make it to the island where the shooter opened fire on a youth camp in Norway, killing 85 people. What took them so long? And why wasn’t there someone on that island who could defend and protect them?

What does Ayn Rand have to do with Norway mass murderer Anders Behring Breivik? Leave it to NPR to draw the comparison … albeit incorrectly."

From that article, "The Norwegian Killer’s Anti-individualist Nationalism," by David Boaz:

"But surely NPR takes the cake for the most ridiculous name-dropping. This morning Linda Wertheimer, who has 40 years of journalistic experience at NPR, interviewed Goran Skaalmo of the Norwegian Business Daily about Breivik. At about 3:20 of the audio, Wertheimer asks Skaalmo:

I was reminded of the American writer Ann [sic] Rand, in that he talks in his manifesto about the government being too soft, too sort of politically afraid to draw the kind of nationalist lines that he calls for.

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It seems that anti-Muslim paranoids feel confident enough to translate their ideas into actions. We are witnessing the beginning of the European Jihad. I think that Europeans should be especially sensitive to this trend-only 70 years ago the similar ideas and actions brought Europe to the brink of total destruction.

Edited by Leonid
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It seems that anti-Muslim paranoids feel confident enough to translate their ideas into actions. We are witnessing the beginning of the European Jihad. I think that Europeans should be especially sensitive to this trend-only 70 years ago the similar ideas and actions brought Europe to the brink of total destruction.

If you read authors like Mark Steyn you may feel inspired in this way. Leonard Peikoff declared, in a podcast within the last year, that he agreed that Europe is hopeless, they will be taken over by Islam, Sharia etc. It all reminds me of the predictions in Oswald Spengler’s The Hour of Decision from 1933, where he predicted Europe would soon be taken over by the “colored races”, the birth rate data guaranteed it! Oddly, the book was banned by the Nazis for failing to vilify the Jews.

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And, uh, last time I checked, McVeigh was a conservative and a Republican, as well as a practicing Catholic

What???

McVeigh was a registered Republican in the eighties, yes, but there is simply no evidence of his being a mainstream conservative. And though he was raised Catholic, he himself said he lost touch with it as an adult, and described himself as an agnostic (though he did ask for last rites from a priest before being executed -- no atheists in a foxhole, I suppose...). He was not a "practicing Catholic" at all. He didn't attend Mass as an adult, which is the bare minimum for being a practicing Catholic.

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A search of the 1500-page manifesto of the Norwegian terrorist finds a few mentions of Ayn Rand and one quote of hers. I'm waiting for the Leftists to attempt to make something of this.

He’s being described as anti-Marxist, if so it’s no wonder he’d find a quote or two from Rand that would strike his fancy.

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