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2011 London/UK Riots

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WilliamColton
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Looks like looters and thugs are back at it again this Tuesday, four days of unanswered violence and looting that began on Saturday after the fatal shooting of Mark Duggan by Met Police. I find this very interesting: what happens when mob mentality and open violence/property damage is unanswered by police or security?

What does everyone think? What sort of action should the police and riot control take? They're apparently apprehensive to use so much as rubber bullets and fire hoses. Obviously, these thugs have lost the guise of political protest, and are no more than opportunists going unchallenged. If there are others on the forums from the UK with any better perspective on the events, and with any minute by minute news, I'd like to hear.

-WC

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well as asked in this very forum, "do property rights "trump" (!) individual rights" !

Immigration in the UK and elsewhere in Europe and the Old World has different results than in the New World. I should be called the worst scum on earth for pointing out a mere possible connection between recent European "Open Society" policies and these outcomes.

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well as asked in this very forum, "do property rights "trump" (!) individual rights" !

Immigration in the UK and elsewhere in Europe and the Old World has different results than in the New World. I should be called the worst scum on earth for pointing out a mere possible connection between recent European "Open Society" policies and these outcomes.

I'm really not the person to comment or appraise race relations in London or Europe, being an American, so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not sure what the racial make-up of the rioters is. But I'm seeing this as a mix of feelings of entitlement by the lower classes, feelings that London Police (the Met?) have historically mistreated ethnic minorities (it sounds/looks like these areas of rioting are largely black or middle-eastern?), a general feeling of fervor and thuggery, and a complete lack of police presence.

Regardless of the reasons, violent rioting is never any way to solve anything; stealing Blu-Ray Players won't change the death of this man (which is still an area of contention), and destroying your own community will gain you no friends or a political ear. Does anyone know any more of the shooting incident that kicked this whole thing off? I figure the courts will treat it as a murder/manslaughter case and therefor we won't know anything for certain for many months.

This may not be an interesting topic for most, but hose images coming out of London are mesmerizing to me.

-WC

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It doesn't matter the "poor" delinquent guy that got shot without deserving it, what it matters is that this is no ordinary riot.

Western authorities, particularly the soft northern european ones (Spanish or Greek respond more heavily to rioters), give the impression that anything goes. As the ministry of interior said, "law enforcement comes out of consent" or something of the like, probably worse than I quoted.

But it is not just anarchy behind the masked faces of the rioters. A percentage, maybe big maybe small, of them are also unpious muslims. Their pious muslim leaders will condemn such behavior against fellow muslims but felicitate the rioters for eroding the corrupt infidel host system they are occupying culturally, legally, and now it seems, forcefully on the streets. A muslim government would never allow this, so this episode just shows weakness on the part of the British Government and immorality or lack or virtue - in the eyes of everyone from Objectivist to pious muslim- in the population they obviously can't or wont control.

It's more complicated than my seemingly bigoted speech maes it seem, but I am urging not to discard, in a forum on the culture, the Muslim connection.

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Positive Censorship, or Self Censorship in place, also known in strictly Maoist terms as Politically Correct just force me to make the following disclaimer, while I know it's now enough

\

I have nothing against individuals that happened to be born into a muslim family or practice islam ritually as a family or heritage tradition. That doesn't disable me from pointing out the sucess, and therefore risk, of Islam as a religion in these times.

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If you haven't been following the riots all that closely, Wikipedia has a fairly detailed summary of the events precipitating the riots and the course and progress of the violence. Additionally, here is a good map tracking violent incidents over time in the past 4 days.

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I'm beginning to think that the lack of original police presence was due to their reliance on CCTV. Posting cameras around town is much easier and cheaper than maintaining a police force for stopping/responding to street crime. So not only is CCTV a scary dystopian concept, it's incredibly ineffective.

Good to see that they've managed to largely control London, but looks like it's still going in other British cities.

-WC

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What sort of action should the police and riot control take?

To hell with the police. The problem is that people in Britain are not allowed to defend themselves legally. Gun control is very strong in Britain, which is ironic as the "right to bear arms" is a very old Anglo idea. They don't just delegate their right to self defense, they surrender it completely in the current legal philosophy there.

I remember when when the "Rodney King riots" erupted in Los Angeles and the initial police reaction was exactly the same: to back off and let the people blow off some steam. Except steam blowing wasn't what was going on. The first hint of lawlessness brings out the looters and makes the rioting worse. But at least in L.A. I also remember seeing live video of Korean grocers on the roof of their store with large caliber and shiny attention getting pistols and more serious looking AR-15s.

Cursory search turns up this video:

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I'm really not the person to comment or appraise race relations in London or Europe, being an American, so correct me if I'm wrong. I'm not sure what the racial make-up of the rioters is. But I'm seeing this as a mix of feelings of entitlement by the lower classes, feelings that London Police (the Met?) have historically mistreated ethnic minorities (it sounds/looks like these areas of rioting are largely black or middle-eastern?), a general feeling of fervor and thuggery, and a complete lack of police presence.

I've read a report describing some Turkish and Kurdish neighborhoods defending their lives and property against the rioters in what looks to me like an eminently rational response. I think the underlying problem here isn't racial, it's widespread irrationalism and entitlement-thinking in the dependent classes. Some of those are immigrants, some are native-born to the UK.

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