Serving in the Israeli Army

[Nigel]

Israel requires all citizens to serve in the armed forces. Arguably, maintaining a strong army is absolutely essential for the continued existence of the nation. Furthermore the accomplishments Israelis are numerous. Israelis have built a highly successful economy, and have made significant efforts to improve the land to make it more habitable and useable for agriculture. Rand said--I don't recall where she said this--that Israelis' have a better claim to the land of Israel than Palestinians because of their efforts in making the land productive and habitable.

The legal requirement of serving in the military certainly is not consistent with Objectivist ethics. However, I have 2 questions that relate to this nation's unique situation.

1) Is it ethical to avoid military service if living in a nation that unarguably needs to maintain a strong military to preserve its existence? Given the knowledge that you are able to productively pursue business ventures under the current government, but most likely would not be free to pursue these activities under a different government. Furthermore, is this required service simply an exchange of working short-term to preserve liberty for a lifetime. This question is not about forced service, but the ethics of dodging service (Israelis can be exempt from military service for various reasons).

2) If military service was not mandated, what would be the Objectivist view on willingly serving? If Israel was a nation of Objectivists and not Jews, would it be able to maintain the ability to protect itself from its neighbors if serving in the military were not mandated?

[WilliamColton]

Israel requires all citizens to serve in the armed forces. Arguably, maintaining a strong army is absolutely essential for the continued existence of the nation. Furthermore the accomplishments Israelis are numerous. Israelis have built a highly successful economy, and have made significant efforts to improve the land to make it more habitable and useable for agriculture. Rand said--I don't recall where she said this--that Israelis' have a better claim to the land of Israel than Palestinians because of their efforts in making the land productive and habitable.

The legal requirement of serving in the military certainly is not consistent with Objectivist ethics. However, I have 2 questions that relate to this nation's unique situation.

1) Is it ethical to avoid military service if living in a nation that unarguably needs to maintain a strong military to preserve its existence? Given the knowledge that you are able to productively pursue business ventures under the current government, but most likely would not be free to pursue these activities under a different government. Furthermore, is this required service simply an exchange of working short-term to preserve liberty for a lifetime. This question is not about forced service, but the ethics of dodging service (Israelis can be exempt from military service for various reasons).

2) If military service was not mandated, what would be the Objectivist view on willingly serving? If Israel was a nation of Objectivists and not Jews, would it be able to maintain the ability to protect itself from its neighbors if serving in the military were not mandated?

1) Conscription isn't ethical under any circumstance, no matter how dire the need may be.

2) If the need truly arises, I don't think any one has any problem with taking up arms, so long as the cause is just, and the enemy true. Volunteer armies work.

WC

[Tanaka]

1. I would say people should make up their minds on whether they can accept living in this imperfect political system, and then act on that decision consistently. If they decide they can, they should serve their time in the IDF and then take advantage of the freedoms it defends. If they decide they cannot, they should dodge the draft, and then move to a western country with a professional, volunteer military, as soon as they have the means to do so.

Dodging the draft but then sticking around to take advantage of others' service would not be moral.

2. If five million Objectivists were forced to establish their own country, in the middle of the desert and surrounded by savages, I have no doubt they would be able to field a military that's much more competent than the well intentioned, patriotic Jewish conscripts of the IDF. In fact Israel, as it is, would be able to field a more competent professional military than the IDF. They would of course have to cut a lot of social programs to pay for such a military.

Professional soldiers are just better than conscripts. For one, they're doing something they've chosen to do. They also have more time to train, as they serve longer terms. They're also usually a little older than most conscripts.

And, more importantly, the military of the Objectivist nation would be better used, because its leaders would have a better Ethics to guide their decisions than Israel's leadership does.

If military service was not mandated, what would be the Objectivist view on willingly serving?

Being a soldier, in Capitalism, is a profession. The Objectivist view is the same as with any profession: any given career is right for some people, wrong for others, depending on their abilities, passions, etc.

[Reason_Being]

Conscription is unethical.

Also I think that Israel would benefit more from hiring professional soldiers. It would be in their best interest to ditch the whole conscription thing.

[Daniellecs]

I served in the Israeli Air Force for 2 years, and I did it with pleasure.

It's funny, but many of the things that you see from the other side of the world, via news, are not always true [and when I say not always I mean, almost never]

People that want to get out of the military, as you said, can get out of it quite easily, infact over 40% of the teenagers are getting out of the military [usually because they are lazy, but still their own choice.]

When a person holds a gun against you, you are not going to sit down and let it fly by.

It's true that Israel made an amazing progress, and without it, the world wouldnt have IM programs, firewall, cherry tomatoes, and many medical devices... [and many other things. you can look up hereand herefor general idea.]

The truth about the IDF is, that people that serves there, do it by choice. People do it in order to be able to live by their values, and to have their land, the little spot of freedom.

Yes, people that serves in the military get benefits from the country [just like any other country in the world] but dont forget that for two-three years they dont get paid.

One of the reason that the military exists is also the reason that the military is strong - because people that serve dont think about the benefits or money [the benefits are not good anyways], they do it because it's part of their values. and that's when you get also the intelligent, quality soliders and not only a bunch of jocks that know how to use a gun

[HolyLandMan]

I currently serve in the IDF as a frontline soldier & rescue squad. Soon I'll also be a squad commander.

From a young age I always wanted to serve the most I can... Serving in the IDF is a culture in Israel... even though only 47% of the population really serves, and only 10%-20% serve fronline (="Kravi") soldiers.

Serving as "Kravi" frontline soldier is a wanted social archetype , especially if you serve in elite unites special forces, or command roles.

Moreover, there is a negative social pressure against individuals who don't serve "Mishtamtim".

So serving in the IDF is moral and to your rational self interest, especially if you plan living in Israel.

The law of forced army service in Israel is only valid in a crysis situation, which exists in Israel from its first day, more than 63 years.

If you do not want to live in Israel- it is altruisem and not moral to serve in the IDF.

Currently, Israel IS a socialist & semi religious country.

There is a huge protest right now about the fact that It is almost impossible to lead a normal life in Israel...

More than 50% of my parants' salary goes to tax!

The "strong ecconomy" of Israel is held by a VERY small precentage of the population who carry the burden of the rest of Israelis: unitellegent, uneducated (some even violent) "Atillas", religious mystics and "witch doctors".

It could go to one of two direcions- left=socialist welfare state /right=towards freedom and capitalisem.

The reason I serve in the IDF is because my parants will not support me if I won't + I want a jewish state to exist... So it is my choice.

If Israel will move towards a walfare state and not towards capitalisem, I will leave right after I finish army, if not right away.

[Boydstun]

HLM,

You might like to listen to some of these responses of Yaron Brook if you have not already done so. An answer about conscription in Israel is at minutes 3:45–4:50

Of related interest,

[Strider68]

-Conscription is definitly unethical. Even if there are hordes of savages at the gates.

-Also, while I agree that Israel has every right to defend itself I don't agree with Israel getting tens of billions from the US though foreign aid. If I got free money too I would also be able to improve my surroundings, my house hold economy and my education. My thing is what makes this country or these people so special as to deserve so much money? Ayn Rand talked about people who gained Money and Power by Influence and Israelly politcans definitly have a lot of power and influence over the US.

-The US fighting for THEIR interest is not in the US best interest since we're wasting so much money and lives fighting for their cause and making a lot of enemies.

Thats some interesting stuff you typed Holymanland.

Edited September 6, 2011 by Strider68