Relationship queston

[searching]

Hi, I'm not an Objectivist myself; I'm still too ignorant on the philosophy. I am though in love with a wonderful man who was/is a student of Objectivism. He had a little group of Objectivist friends he would spend time with and was furthering his knowledge with the taped lectures and other such discussion groups.

When we first started dating he was this strong man with a clear idea of who he was, what he was worth, and what he wanted- I couldn't help but be attracted to that. I on the other hand was this lost, self-hating girl who wanted to die. Despite that he saw value in me. I learned from him that I could be a value among other things.

His Grandfather died and he went back home for the funeral, during this time he examined his life and decided he wasn't where he wanted to be, doing what he wanted to do, or the person he wanted to be. He started to withdraw. Mounting pressure at work has gotten him to the point all he wants to do is survive. Get from one day to the next until the weekend, which he also hates because a new workweek is around the corner.

Where at one point in his life he would enjoy lively discussions and debates about his beliefs he now only "what-ever's" and retreats. He <u>knows</u> where he is now does not fit in with his Objectivist beliefs and he seems to have stalled in getting himself back to where he wants to be.

Its been 20 months since we started dating and he's gone from this strong, self-assured man to some one who is worn out all the time, just barely getting buy and not really enjoying a moment of it. I worry in rising up to his level I pulled him down.

We have goals set for ourselves both individually and as a couple but progress is slow and I think he may be discouraged. I'm hoping if he throws his energy into perusing his goals, going back to school to do what he wants in life, he might start feeling better. But he hasn't yet. I've also suggested him becoming involved with Objectivist groups in the area, but once again he doesn't seem to have the motivation or energy or what ever it takes to break him out of this rut he has gotten in.

Is there any way I can help him? I miss the man I fell in love with.

[The Durande]

If it is at all financially possible - even if you both have to borrow the money - go on a vacation. A vacation from the 9-5 routine. Go to some other part of the world. For many reasons. First, because it will put the romance back - adventures always do. Romance, in turn, will remind each of you what you are living for - CONCRETELY. That is to say, most objectivists, as knowledgable as they are, tend to forget the simple pleasures: eating, sex, physical exertion, play, while dwelling exclusively that their lives ought to have some "goal". It is true that we should have purpose, but only if it makes us happy. Another reason is that, after some time in another country, I always feel great anticipation to get back to work. And back to America - its amazing what we take for granted in this country. If a person's job has got them depressed here - just imagine living in a place where one has very little opportunity or choice. We are truly living in a paradise here in America, and everyone, including me, needs to be reminded of that from time to time.

[GoodOrigamiMan]

If it is his study of Objectivism that is making him unhappy then he is either misapplying or expecting something unrealistic. You said, “He knows where he is now does not fit into his Objectivist beliefs.” If he said that he probably thinks his actions are inconstant with Objectivist principles… meaning he is torn between what he wants to do or feels he needs to do and what he thinks he should do. This is not a consequence of being an Objectivist, but it is a common obstacle in integrating Objectivism after going thru a good portion of life philosophically unarmed.

I left my girlfriend over a major disagreement about moral values. When we started dating I knew she didn’t agree with me on Objectivism but she was interested in it and was making progress, so I thought I was in a position to be supportive and in turn appreciated. However, thanks to the presidential election, general world affairs, university philosophy teachers and three thousand miles (among other things) interest diminished, progress stopped, and opposition grew (to Objectivism / not my other virtues)… anyways after that was made explicitly clear it was over.

All I can say is that he is right to study Objectivism. I wouldn’t support him if you don’t think the philosophy is good, but I would recommend you read Atlas Shrugged then decide for yourself. If you can judge the philosophy as good or bad you might make a good Objectivist yourself… even if you get it wrong the first time.

I second Durande's idea about a vacation... bring Atlas Shrugged.

[Ed from OC]

I worry in rising up to his level I pulled him down.

I don't know how that's possible. If he's done some things that have helped you become a better, happier person -- how could that make him unhappy or a bad person? My point is I can see absolutely no reason to beat yourself up.

His Grandfather died and he went back home for the funeral, during this time he examined his life and decided he wasn't where he wanted to be, doing what he wanted to do, or the person he wanted to be. He started to withdraw. Mounting pressure at work has gotten him to the point all he wants to do is survive. Get from one day to the next until the weekend, which he also hates because a new workweek is around the corner.

Where at one point in his life he would enjoy lively discussions and debates about his beliefs he now only "what-ever's" and retreats. He knows where he is now does not fit in with his Objectivist beliefs and he seems to have stalled in getting himself back to where he wants to be.

There are so many variables and details involved here that I would take advice offered by strangers on an online forum with a grain of salt. There may be (and probably are) significant details left out of your description.

That said, what stands out from what you wrote is that he is he is frustrated with his life and looking to change. It isn't clear whether he knows which way he wants to go, or if he is, how committed he is to changing.

Some things to consider: How willing is he to discuss his frustrations? How detailed are his identifications of what he dislikes about his current situation and his plans for change? (If he hasn't a clear idea of either, that can really amplify his frustration.)

Is his unwillingness to discuss and "debate" his beliefs limited to less personal things (e.g., general philosophy, current events, etc.)? If that's the case, it could just be he sees these things as far less important than the other matters that are pressing on him. However, if he is unwilling to discuss (i.e., communicate, not debate) personal matters with you personally, then that is a whole other problem.

It's not uncommon for people to encounter turning points in their life. Perhaps having mortality thrust to the forefront with recent events has led him to re-prioritize his values. Emotionally that can be really draining, as one can feel disconnected from the driving passions one used to have. It can take quite some time to restructure one's hierarchy of personal values, but if done correctly, the biggest passions can re-ignite one's joy of living and end up being even brighter. So this may be temporary.

But these are just a few possibilities. Really the only piece of advice I can offer is to communicate effectively. If that's already the case, then maybe some therapy would help him sort out his situation.

[Free Capitalist]

That was a pretty touching post, 'searching'.

Would you mind sharing your man's age? The reason I ask is because if he's older, around 40s let's say, then his life habits are set and I don't think any simple advice you seem to be asking for will be adequate.

But if he is in 20s, more likely than not his problems are temporary and not necessarily fundamental.

This also has a lot to do with how long this man has been conscientiously applying Objectivism (or some other life-affirming philosophy, very rare these days) to his life. It is quite possible that he has just read Ayn Rand for the first time, a short time before meeting you, and like many newbie Objectivists has put up a front that he's the next John Galt. Thus instead of discovering who he is and who he can be, he told himself (and you) who he ought to be, and this is what you might have seen, not his real self.

Or another possibility, he has misunderstood a key principle in how to acquire proper values and moral habits, and has been trying to do the wrong thing all this time. Of course his attempts necessarily have ended in failure so he may have misconstrued this lack of success as his inherent failure and has given up.

Or, it may well be just as you said, that the death of his dearly loved relative may have set a serious damp on his benevolent-universe premise, even he's been practicing his life-giving philosophy properly up to that point. Here, just as elsewhere, age is of crucial importance, as well as the length of time he has practiced his philosophy. Newbies can get their benevolent universe premise dampened very quickly, while long-timers are very resilient.

So these are just some of the possibilities off the top of my head. There's no simple answer here, and if there's an answer at all, only you and him can find it. None of us here certainly can, because we lack all of the important context and knowledge of character that are vital to answering questions like these.

So I hope that was helpful. Although a forum like this cannot give you an answer you look for, various members can suggest principles by which to look, and can also provide insights like those that hopefully I have given above.

Good luck! (And remember, as the wise Thales said in my sig, giving advice to others is the easiest thing in the world; anyone at all can do it, so caveat emptor, let the buyer beware .)

[searching]

Would you mind sharing your man's age? The reason I ask is because if he's older, around 40s let's say, then his life habits are set and I don't think any simple advice you seem to be asking for will be adequate.

He's 33, he had been aware of the philosophy for a long time from what he's told me, but didn't start integrating it into his life until about three or four years ago. He has read every one of her books. But is harsh on himself because though he owns OPAR he's never read it. When we first met he was nearly done listening to the lecture course. As I understand growth in a philosophy is a personal thing I can only guess how much he had applied to his life. I know he still knows it to be true he just seems to have regressed from where he was or thought he was when we met.

I don't know how that's possible. If he's done some things that have helped you become a better, happier person -- how could that make him unhappy or a bad person? My point is I can see absolutely no reason to beat yourself up.

Thank you for saying that I have a nasty habit of blaming myself for everything. Its easier, though, to slap me and say stop it.

Is his unwillingness to discuss and "debate" his beliefs limited to less personal things (e.g., general philosophy, current events, etc.)? If that's the case, it could just be he sees these things as far less important than the other matters that are pressing on him. However, if he is unwilling to discuss (i.e., communicate, not debate) personal matters with you personally, then that is a whole other problem.

For the most part we communicate real well. On occasion he'll have a real bad day and it will be like pulling teeth to find out what’s wrong, but that’s usually few and far between.

If it is his study of Objectivism that is making him unhappy then he is either misapplying or expecting something unrealistic.

I don't think its his study of Objectivism is making him unhappy, I think he is unhappy there for doesn't study. Symptom more then a cause. I know that Objectivism is a positive thing in his life. I think my question is mainly that this is what he wants in his life, he seems a bit lost, how could I support him in getting back on track. From a personal stand point would some one interested in Objectivism want that kind of support?

A few side notes, ten years ago while he was in college he decided to become a computer guy because he could earn good money, but he hates his job. He has judged himself to be lazy and evasive, and is hard on himself coming home from work and vegging in front of the computer to unwind instead of working towards his goals. These are all examples he's sighted as ways he does not fit into his Objectivist beliefs.

I read Anthem in eighth grade and The Fountainhead in tenth. I thought they were wonderful stories but made no connection to any sort of philosophical way of life at the time. Until him I had no idea that Ayn Rand was anything more then a great writer. He introduced me to the philosophy, I read Atlas Shrugged a year ago while I was in the hospital, then reread the other two along with a first reading of We the Living, and am currently reading The Virtue of Selfishness. I agree with the philosophy but find fault in myself that prevents me from perusing it.

[GoodOrigamiMan]

From a personal stand I think the kind of someone interested in Objectivism needs is critical support. Meaning not a passive encouragement but active evaluation and acting accordingly. The primary Objectivist virtue is rationality, thinking is hard work and acting true to your ideas takes integrity, it helps to have someone who can strengthen your convictions – or if they are wrong, tell you why.

If he is working, aka being productive, he should give himself more credit… I don’t like the popularity of jokes and movies about people hating where they work (like Office Space)… I’m not sure if I’m being unreasonable or not but I look at hating where you work as irrational, meaning people tend to think they would be happy if they were working somewhere else. Frankly I think people have subconsciously have surrendered the virtue of productivity to the altruist sludge. There is no point in hating work, if you know you’d rather work somewhere else then work towards that, but don’t blame work for your unhappiness – rather thank it for your house, car, food, and if you have time – vacations.

If you found a fault, which is implying that you know it is a fault… why not fix it?

If the computer eats up time at the house then unplug it. Or just limit using it to half an hour a day (unless you are posting on the O.O. forum ). Get out of the house! Walk in the park; get a dog or a cool hobby like Ballroom Dancing, Archery, Taekwondo or the Piano.

[Ed from OC]

As I understand growth in a philosophy is a personal thing I can only guess how much he had applied to his life.

Pardon my bluntness, but why do you have to guess? If you've been dating this guy for some time, then I assume you know quite a lot about his life -- his career, his hobbies, his family, his friends, his interests, his goals, his habits, etc. From such an intimate perspective I think you would be able to see plenty of evidence of what matters to him, how he approaches different aspects of his life, and so on. Based on that you ought to be able to do better than making a blind guess.

...ten years ago while he was in college he decided to become a computer guy because he could earn good money, but he hates his job.

That sounds like a very big issue. Going into ANY career for the money alone is a mistake. That could be the heart of the issue. It's unfortunately pretty common for people to make mistakes about their career choice. The best thing to do once you realize you made such a mistake is to re-evaluate your career choice and find something better. It may take time to figure that out. It may take time to get trained in a new field. It may take years of scraping by before the new career becomes financially viable (or before you get back to the same level of income). But it would be worth it, instead of letting the problem get worse.

It can be really intimidating to write off 10 years of your life, set aside the gains you've made there, and essentially start over. It can create a huge amount of anxiety, which many people "handle" by procrastinating. Of course, that doesn't fix the problem, and in fact serves to enhance the anxiety. Maybe (and again I stress my limited perspective) that is what is bothering him.

Thank you for saying that I have a nasty habit of blaming myself for everything. Its easier, though, to slap me and say stop it. ...  I agree with the philosophy but find fault in myself that prevents me from perusing it.

I'm not a psychologist, but as I read this, what jumps out is a self-esteem issue. It personally bothers me to see someone attack herself, as it looks like you're doing here.

As a general suggestion, you may want to take a look at the websites of a couple of psychologists -- Dr. Hurd and Dr. Kenner -- who are also Objectivists and have experience dealing with self-esteem issues. I've been impressed by Dr. Kenner's lectures and radio show, and I hear good things about Dr. Hurd from a patient of his.

The point of having a rational, true philosophy is that it enhances one's life. Frankly, it's a cop-out to say "I'm not good enough" in this context. Why? Because we are talking about, primarily, ethics and epistemology. It makes no sense to say "I'm not good enough to be rational" or "I don't deserve to act morally." Thinking clearly and acting according to what you know is right are both matters of choice. That is, they are available to any human being, but require the decision, the act of will, to engage. It's not as if you spend years studying the rules of logic and then reach a point where you become rational. You can be rational immediately, by choosing to be so. (Studying logic enhances one's skills, but does not create a capacity that was not already there to some degree.)

And the same with morality. It sounds like you have enough of an idea about Objectivist ethics that you should have an understanding of the major virtues, like honesty. If one knows what honesty is, and that it is proper, there is no excuse not to practice it. And the same with the other virtues.

Given a certain level of knowledge of morality, a person can accept it and act accordingly, or not. A person can choose to be good, or not. If one grasps what is moral, but chooses not to practice it, that person doesn't get a third option. (The exception would be someone ignorant of morality, but that exception expires with age and only applies to someone willing to learn. Even then, it is not absolute: a child with no formal knowledge of philosophy is not exempt from morality. A certain leniency may be due, but no more.)

While on the subject of self-esteem, you said:

He has judged himself to be lazy and evasive, and is hard on himself coming home from work and vegging in front of the computer to unwind instead of working towards his goals.

That raises yet another possibility: that of unrealistic goals. Does he think he should be a John Galt of computers? That happens occasionally. After reading Ayn Rand's novels, occasionally someone may feel guilty or worthless if they aren't the very best in their field. But that's a misinterpretation. Not everyone can be the very best. What matters is the attempt. What matters is the passion. Eddie Willers hadn't the ability of Dagny, Rearden, or Galt, but was their equal in terms of how good a person he was. That is, it is the yardstick of morality that matters for judging people.

That may or may not be the issue here. I don't know.

[Ed from OC]

If he is working, aka being productive,

Be careful here. Holding a job is not the same as practicing the virtue of productiveness. A tax collector or drug enforcement agent does not produce life-promoting values. What makes a job moral is the opportunity to create objective values that enhance one's life. Plenty of jobs today (especially in government) involve the violation of rights, making them fundamentally attacks on values. An artist creating inspirational work, a dentist providing clean teeth, a scientist curing cancer, an accountant keeping corporate finances in order are just a few examples of the process of creating values.

[A.West]

I think it's dangerous to give advice to anonymous, unfamiliar people, but here's my advice:

My guess, this man isn't proud of his work, and may believe that he's failing to live up to his ideals. Perhaps he knows that changing his ways would be painful, possibly expensive, or wrenching. There may be short-term "pain" involved in getting on the right track long term. I think the best thing to do is say - you need to change your life & career in a direction consistent with your virtues, and I will support that regardless of the near-term consequences.

[Godless Capitalist]

Going into ANY career for the money alone is a mistake.  That could be the heart of the issue.  It's unfortunately pretty common for people to make mistakes about their career choice.  The best thing to do once you realize you made such a mistake is to re-evaluate your career choice and find something better.  It may take time to figure that out.  It may take time to get trained in a new field.  It may take years of scraping by before the new career becomes financially viable (or before you get back to the same level of income).  But it would be worth it, instead of letting the problem get worse.

Agreed. It's not enough to make lots of money if you hate your work and don't feel fulfilled by it. I see this in my own work (freelance editing). Some jobs I take on are boring and unchallenging and I just plow through them as best I can. If all my work was like that I would change careers.

That raises yet another possibility: that of unrealistic goals.  Does he think he should be a John Galt of computers?  That happens occasionally.  After reading Ayn Rand's novels, occasionally someone may feel guilty or worthless if they aren't the very best in their field.  But that's a misinterpretation.  Not everyone can be the very best.  What matters is the attempt.  What matters is the passion.  Eddie Willers hadn't the ability of Dagny, Rearden, or Galt, but was their equal in terms of how good a person he was.  That is, it is the yardstick of morality that matters for judging people.

Agreed again. I think AR's novels sometimes give people the idea that they are failures unless they have major heroic goals and accomplishments. (Note by the way that Eddie Willers was not invited into Galt's Gulch. Why not?)

[searching]

He doesn't feel fulfilled by his work; he's a computer tec who just phones it in for the most part. He wants to work in computer animation and write, he's never perused computer animation so I don't know how he would be in that, but he's done some writing and he has potential if he could put it to work. One of the goals he has is to go back to school but to afford that he'll need student loans and he has taxes issues he has to take care of before that as the tip of many other things and I figure it seems like a daunting task to him. Plus he has been out of school for so long and life changes are hard to make.

Pardon my bluntness, but why do you have to guess? If you've been dating this guy for some time, then I assume you know quite a lot about his life

Even from an intimate perspective it’s still a guess because I'm still an outside observer. I know what he tells me and what his reactions mean, but I don't know what’s inside his head. I don't know what’s in the part he keeps from me. I don't know that that makes sense. So I guess its not a blind guess, but a guess none the less.

as I read this, what jumps out is a self-esteem issue.

My largest issue is self-esteem; I've been working on it and have made huge leaps and bounds, but still have a ways to go. Right now my focus is learning to value myself and to continue my education.

Thank you all for your suggestions they have given me a great place to start a conversation with him a problem solve possible solutions. I really appreciate it.

[individualistchick]

It sounds to me, searching, that you're making excuses for why he has never pursued his dreams.

*Pursuing your dreams is not a cakewalk.* You have to prioritize what you like to do and then find how to make money doing it. There will almost always be some sort of obstacle somewhere along your path.

Computers, like any other career field, require that you love what you do, or else you will be miserable doing it. But it is unlike many other fields in that it doesn't necessarily require formal schooling (although it helps a great deal). You can teach yourself or learn from a friend. I'm a part-time computer tech - but everything of value I have learned about computers I either taught myself or was taught by the guy I've come to love.

He should use the fact that formal schooling is not necessarily required to his advantage. Some well-chosen reference material is not very expensive in comparison to formal schooling and should be enough to get him started on the career he wants.

[searching]

I'm not making the excueses, I'm mearly repeating what he has said to me. He does have Blender to teach himself some Computer Animation.