Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Is it immoral for me to tell a little lie to my bf?

Rate this topic


Recommended Posts

My bf is really paranoid about me having an STD because I lost control of myself with a guy last fall, and he has interrogated me a lot about what I actually did with him. I know that he has some kind of anxiety and can be pretty irrational sometimes. He doesn't really know how to associate with girls and be respectful/discreet about that kind of stuff, so that's why I'm doing this and I'm not upset that he's asking me these kind of questions. I have already had an STD test (although it doesn't test everything) and it was all negative. I've had no symptoms or anything like that, so I have no reason to believe I have one since that bf was in the navy and he was tested for that stuff all the time. I do have oral herpes or tiny cold sores, like 80% of people and I was explaining to him that if you kiss people, you will get it (even my parents have it).

Here's the issue and it's complicated. He wants to know before I kiss him if I did any oral stuff with this guy. I actually did do some oral stuff, but I didn't do it long enough for him to come, which means there would be little chance of getting something that way anyway. He misinterprets things and worries excessively and will use something like that against me forever when we have disagreements, so I said I didn't do it, I said I only gave him a handjob, deep kissing, and had regular sex. I think that is sufficient, since he didn't actually come and it was only the skin and a really tiny amount of moisture that I had contact with. Like I said before, he has anxiety and can be very irrational about that stuff, is it immoral for me to tell a little lie like that, if I know it won't hurt his health or anything? I can't be 100% sure I didn't pick anything up, but I'm quite sure I couldn't and know I definitely couldn't have herpes, because in most people that would show up within a year (except for the common cold sore kind). I think it is kind of unnecessary for him to know the minute details of what I did with this other guy, except for health reasons.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, if he's going to be immature and ridiculous about it no.  No one on here can know who I am, I can say with certainty that I'm being completely anonymous.  In real life I am nonexistant to whoever reads this because they cannot find out who I am.  I think any atheist who advocates for sexual purity is just downright hilarious though.  Sex is not just about love, it's a physical need and young hormonal people are not going to find love at their age.  Every heterosexual person wants to do it badly.  If you don't you're probably gay and I'm dead serious, that's my opinion.  I don't mind waiting with particular people, in fact I think it's great, but there's nothing wrong with having sex with someone you are highly attracted to and have known long enough to trust reasonably, as long as you don't make it a constant habit.  Do you realize that most normal teens experiment with it by the time they get out of highschool?Your signature is pretty funny because you didn't actually understand what I was saying.  The whole point of me saying this is that I don't want to tell him simply because he is immature and irrational right now and will use it against me later in the relationship.

Edited by Dreamspirit
Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion you should tell him like this: "I'm going to tell you this only because you are so paranoid and want to know all the details. Ordinarily, I don't have to share with you about my previous relationship. So I am prepared to tell you exactly how it was, second by second, if you wish to know. What do you want to know?". Then if he proceeds to ask you, just answer. If he can't handle the truth that he asked for, just move on. You didn't do anything wrong, so you don't have to feel guilty about anything.

Link to post
Share on other sites

He'll be able to handle it (he'll say something like, I don't know what to think about that, or that kind of bothers me), but he won't invite me on a date until he can be sure he's not going to "catch something" from kissing me I guess. It is very offensive and I do feel offended sometimes, but I really shouldn't because he clearly has issues. The only reason I hesitate is because I have a deep emotional connection with him that has carried over for years. He has also been viciously brainwashed by his adoptive jewish grandparents and puritan christian ukrainian father (a drunk weirdo lol). He's young and is a bit socially awkward around girls because he lives in a very isolated place where the people are very churchy and cliquey and he's been in a confused, depressed state ever since I met him, but he is very handsome and his good traits shine through, even though he has some very annoying ones. What annoys me most is that he can't decide about anything and doesn't really want to, but that's really not his fault given how he was trained to think. Right now I'm just trying to convince him to start college and get a driver's license so he can get away from the bad environment with his family. I kind of went through a stage like him except I didn't give up the way he did, but I think this sort of thing gets to males more than it does females.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Sailors are tested at least every 24 months for HIV. Other than that, more extensive testing for other STDs is only performed just before you enlist (at a MEPS) or if you walk in and request it. I specifically requested a thorough set of tests prior to getting married. It involved 2 visits for 2 urine samples and 2 or 3 blood samples. I just want to make sure you know the facts.

I get pretty thorough annual physicals as a pilot, and those do not include STD testing.

Edited by Jake
Link to post
Share on other sites

Little confused - was your BF your BF at the time you had this other fling?

From your descriptions, it sounds like there are deeper issues here that won't be healthy in a long term relationship. He's got issues but I'm talking more about you and how you seem determined to change/fix him.

That's not healthy, or realistic.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My thoughts are similar to Greebo's: You seem determined to fix him. Your description of him as, "he's been in a confused, depressed state ever since I met him, but he is very handsome and his good traits shine through, even though he has some very annoying ones. What annoys me most is that he can't decide about anything and doesn't really want to, but that's really not his fault given how he was trained to think", really puts up the red flag for me. Right now you say that he is handsome and has some good traits, but, long-term, you will develop contempt (perhaps rightly so) for him as it seems as if his negatives are pretty substantial. Being handsome isn't going to get anyone far in a long-term relationship. YOU have to convince him to go to college and get a driver's license??!? Are you his mother or career counselor?

You would be better off being with someone you can respect, and not try to fix.

Link to post
Share on other sites

My experience tells me, no mutual respect and trust, no love.

Attraction and infatuation will not see you through.

Echoing the others, the only issues you have the right or the power to fix, are your own.

Link to post
Share on other sites

@Jake thanks but I know, I researched it.  He was honest enough to admit that he had sex with a lot of people and claims that he always uses condoms, yet he didn't use one with me.  When I interrogated him about it in an email (in order not to embarass him) he said that it would be extremely unlikely for him to have anything, but that he can't say it's impossible.  He was a scumbag and I'm very angry about what happened.  He would always repeat, I'm not a bad guy, I'm not a bad guy and would deny any criticism I made against him, but had plenty to dish out to me when I did practically nothing wrong.  He would alternate between calling me perfect and then making little criticisms about ridiculous things.  Some of those armed force people are just really F*cked up in the head.  I should have spoken up and told him that if he wants to go that far, he'd better go get a condom, but he knew what he was doing.

That's why I got tested for most of the things that often don't show symptoms like Clamydia, syphillis etc.  I think it is absolutely necessary for a couple to get STD tests before they have sex, but before you kiss someone?  That is pretty neurotic IMO.  Even if I had something that could be transmitted that way (which is very unlikely given that a year has passed and he didn't have a break out) it would still be a very small chance you would catch it.  I would have to go down to the health department to get a full STD check (and it would still probably cost money) and that is just creepy.  I want to wait till I get a job with health insurance.

All the guys who I've ever been interested in or have ever taken interest in me are pretty much equally messed up in the head.  What I'm talking about with him is more of a cultural problem.  I have watched him change over the years, and males are less mature than females at age 18.  It's not that I'm trying to fix him exactly, just make him aware that there's a world out there.  The situation is more complex than I can communicate in a thread, I've never felt this way about a person, so I'm willing to give him a chance.  The only major problem is that I am kind of gung ho, and he is all gloomy and stubborn, but opposites attract I guess?  As we've gotten to know each other he's gotten less like that though, he's just got to get rid of some of his stupid obsessions, which are just immaturity that will probably pass.

Edited by Dreamspirit
Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes, it's immoral to lie. By lying you are evading reality, in this case your boyfriends character. You seem to know what his reaction will be like, while trying to avoid the consequences of telling him the truth. Think about what effect that attitude will have on your relationship in the long run.

I suggest you tell him straight. Then deal with it. Either you'll come to terms with each other, or it will cause a break. The important thing though is that you deal with each other as who you are, and not how you wish the other person would be.

Link to post
Share on other sites

If you have not kissed your current boyfriend yet I dont see why you would consider him your boyfriend, or the two of you a couple. I certainly would not refer to someone I have not even kissed as my girlfriend.

And in what environment did you try to kiss him, and what context allowed him to stop you and ask you about prior sexual experiences and demanding an STD test prior to making out? That behaviour makes no sense imo.

P.S.

Your point that if someone does not approve of a "less puritan" view on sex must be gay is somewhat hilarious. I would make the general assumption that on average they are not excessively puritan, by comparison ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

"Some of those armed force people are just really F*cked up in the head. I should have spoken up and told him that if he wants to go that far, he'd better go get a condom, but he knew what he was doing."

Well, so did you. Or did you not know that sexual activity can transmit sexually-transmitted diseases? I also have a hard time believing that "armed force people are just really F*cked up in the head" anymore than the rest of us. Trust me, ordinary non-military folks can be just as screwed up. Don't make blanket statements about the military, many of which are good and decent men and women serving their country.

I was initially at least somewhat sympathetic to your plight, but the more you have written, the more I feel sorry for this boyfriend of yours. You are indeed trying to "fix" him, which is death for any long-term relationship.

Let me play armchair psychologist for a moment: I don't think that your boyfriend is actually worried about STDs. I think that what you are seeing is a passive-aggressive response to your dismissal of his upbringing and his mores as "stupid". He's not man enough (yet) to actually challenge your attitudes about sex and any other modern notions you might hold that make him uncomfortable, but no doubt he can see the difference between his parents' and grandparents' more elevated view of sex, and your more modern attitude (his grandparents probably didn't have to worry about STDs -- you do).

Link to post
Share on other sites

I didn't say ordinary non-military folks can't be just as screwed up, but military people do often become screwed up in the head from the stress of their job.  These are the type of people who don't care to think, because everything is so "complicated" and "makes their head hurt."  They just want to sit around, take their viagra or antidepressant, and do nothing.  They're like animals.  And I am not psychologising, these are just things I've observed in multiple military people.  

No, I'm not trying to fix him, I'm just letting him know if he doesn't stop being an immature drifter, I won't ever speak to him again and he'll lose his chance to be with me.  I didn't mean to imply that he was my bf really, but he is a potential bf.  He is one of those christian puritans who doesn't really believe in dating, but he's become more distant from the brainwashing as time has gone on.  

The psychologisers never cease to give their unwanted, amateur opinions.  I don't give a shit about sympathy, I know very well he has his fair share of schemes and games he plays too. I have chosen not to include his racist attacks against me when he found out I come from a Polish family.  The question was simply about whether it's immoral to lie in such a situation.

Edited by Dreamspirit
Link to post
Share on other sites

"No, I'm not trying to fix him, I'm just letting him know if he doesn't stop being an immature drifter, I won't ever speak to him again and he'll lose his chance to be with me."

You're deceiving yourself -- the conditions you lay out in the latter part of that sentence ("do this -- change -- or I'm outta here") is, in fact, a rather heavy-handed attempt at fixing someone, whether you want to admit that or not.

You also come across as very angry -- I don't know why your potential BF would want that. And you mention his "racist attacks" --- I really don't understand what the two of you see in each other.

This is not a relationship that is going to work, in my opinion (and I've been happily married for 25 years, so I know what it takes to make a relationship work). My sincere advice? Move on -- find someone whose views are more in sync with yours. I would not waste a second with someone who thought my views were stupid and immature.

Link to post
Share on other sites
  • 1 month later...

"No, I'm not trying to fix him, I'm just letting him know if he doesn't stop being an immature drifter, I won't ever speak to him again and he'll lose his chance to be with me."

You're deceiving yourself -- the conditions you lay out in the latter part of that sentence ("do this -- change -- or I'm outta here") is, in fact, a rather heavy-handed attempt at fixing someone, whether you want to admit that or not.

You also come across as very angry -- I don't know why your potential BF would want that. And you mention his "racist attacks" --- I really don't understand what the two of you see in each other.

This is not a relationship that is going to work, in my opinion (and I've been happily married for 25 years, so I know what it takes to make a relationship work). My sincere advice? Move on -- find someone whose views are more in sync with yours. I would not waste a second with someone who thought my views were stupid and immature.

Well, you can't blame me for thinking that someone's ideas are stupid and immature if they think airline companies should reduce their prices to help poor people get cheap transportation, companies should keep hiring people until they go bankrupt etc. and they just whine and play the victim is situations where their incompetence becomes apparent. He decieves me a lot, leads me on and says he's going to be rational, and then comes back when I'm physically attracted to him and emotionally attached and starts talking about all this wacky religious stuff. That's only part of it, I will refrain from saying any more because it's too odd and hard to explain. The problem is I want someone who looks a certain way, but is also a real man, but sensitive, and it's so hard to find that I just tend to cling to someone who has the right appearance, because that's where most of the physical attraction comes from.

There is a factor in his personality that just makes him totally neglectful of the truth, and I'm extremely focused on finding out the truth, it's ingrained in my sense of life. I only decieve people when I feel they are not my rational equals and they are not worth dealing with. I am confused and sexually frustrated by his manipulative behavior and good looks, so I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand why I feel the way I do.

Edited by Dreamspirit
Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, you can't blame me for thinking that someone's ideas are stupid and immature if they think airline companies should reduce their prices to help poor people get cheap transportation, companies should keep hiring people until they go bankrupt etc. and they just whine and play the victim is situations where their incompetence becomes apparent. He decieves me a lot, leads me on and says he's going to be rational, and then comes back when I'm physically attracted to him and emotionally attached and starts talking about all this wacky religious stuff. That's only part of it, I will refrain from saying any more because it's too odd and hard to explain. The problem is I want someone who looks a certain way, but is also a real man, but sensitive, and it's so hard to find that I just tend to cling to someone who has the right appearance, because that's where most of the physical attraction comes from.

There is a factor in his personality that just makes him totally neglectful of the truth, and I'm extremely focused on finding out the truth, it's ingrained in my sense of life. I only decieve people when I feel they are not my rational equals and they are not worth dealing with. I am confused and sexually frustrated by his manipulative behavior and good looks, so I don't see why it's so hard for you to understand why I feel the way I do.

In my life, I've found that a person grows more (or less) attractive to me based on what I know about them -- what is true more fundamentally about their character -- and less based on simply their physical appearance.

I'm not Avila, and don't mean to speak for him in response, but I can't imagine a woman so beautiful that I would want to be with her if I simultaneously considered her to be stupid, immature, manipulative, deceptive, etc. I can't imagine that I would continue to find her attractive (which, to stress, is more than simply "good looking"). When I think about the costs that being around such a person would entail -- the stress of it, the uncertainty, etc., -- it makes my blood run cold.

Does this relationship make you happy? When you describe your confusion, your frustration, it doesn't sound like it... but you'll know better than anyone. Anyways, if it doesn't make you happy, then what purpose is it serving your life?

Link to post
Share on other sites

In my life, I've found that a person grows more (or less) attractive to me based on what I know about them -- what is true more fundamentally about their character -- and less based on simply their physical appearance.

I'm not Avila, and don't mean to speak for him in response, but I can't imagine a woman so beautiful that I would want to be with her if I simultaneously considered her to be stupid, immature, manipulative, deceptive, etc. I can't imagine that I would continue to find her attractive (which, to stress, is more than simply "good looking"). When I think about the costs that being around such a person would entail -- the stress of it, the uncertainty, etc., -- it makes my blood run cold.

Does this relationship make you happy? When you describe your confusion, your frustration, it doesn't sound like it... but you'll know better than anyone. Anyways, if it doesn't make you happy, then what purpose is it serving your life?

It's a love hate attraction. Physical beauty is a value, like anything else and I do value that more than anything else in life, because I have an artist archetype. Physical beauty in a man is a material value to me, like something you work hard to get a big salary so you can pay for kind of thing. It's a sexual comfort, which is just like any other physical comfort, the comfort of your home or car, the taste of the food you eat etc. How good food tastes is definitely more important to some people than it is to others, and so that's why physical beauty in the opposite sex is more important to me than you. I think artist types are more attracted to physical beauty because they are primarily concerned with creating esthetic things, and handsomeness/proportion speaks to their whole purpose. I'm no artist, I'm just saying that I have the inborn psychological tendencies of one. Despite whether they were brilliant or worthless, all people who create works of art have certain archetypal features in common.

The sexual attractiveness and sentimentality of him combined with his obvious psychological flaws arouse all the anger I have about the incompetent world and my dramatic self can't help but try to pursue him. I love to feel anger and sexual tension at the same time. It's kind of like the malevolent universe thing on the peikoff podcasts where he gave the example of the painful medicine, people crying at beautiful weddings etc. except anger and drama in a sexual relationship combined with physical beauty of the man are what's positive to me instead of pain or crying paired with beauty.

Edited by Dreamspirit
Link to post
Share on other sites

It's a love hate attraction.

This is something I have a hard time relating to/understanding. My hatred is typically pretty straightforward. ;)

Physical beauty is a value, like anything else and I do value that more than anything else in life, because I have an artist archetype.

All right, let's start here: it's nice to look at pretty things and people. However, you can't really mean it when you say that you value physical beauty "more than anything else in life," can you? That must be hyperbole. In people, specifically, you value physical beauty over intelligence? Courage? Compassion? Integrity? Honesty?

How would you assess a gent like Ted Bundy? By most accounts, he was a handsome guy, and yet...

Physical beauty in a man is a material value to me, like something you work hard to get a big salary so you can pay for kind of thing.

Physical beauty in a woman is a wonderful thing. I mean, for real. Anyone who knows me knows that I'm a sucker for a good-looking woman. (And though I'm pretty damn straight, I'll observe that I enjoy physical beauty in a man, too.)

That said, physical beauty is not the only thing that's important to me when it comes to my relationships, nor is it the central thing. Relationships are about much (much) more than gazing lovingly at one's partner. And so it's important for me to assess everything that I know about those around me, to properly judge the value they potentially represent to me and to my life. I think that over the course of my life, my experience of "attraction" has come to follow this more holistic evaluation.

For instance: My wife is beautiful, but that's not why I'm head-over-heels for her. And there are certainly more beautiful women in the world. But nobody is more attractive to me than my wife.

It's a sexual comfort, which is just like any other physical comfort, the comfort of your home or car, the taste of the food you eat etc. How good food tastes is definitely more important to some people than it is to others, and so that's why physical beauty in the opposite sex is more important to me than you. I think artist types are more attracted to physical beauty because they are primarily concerned with creating esthetic things, and handsomeness/proportion speaks to their whole purpose. I'm no artist, I'm just saying that I have the inborn psychological tendencies of one. Despite whether they were brilliant or worthless, all people who create works of art have certain archetypal features in common.

I don't think you have to defend liking handsome men. But where this specific handsome man is concerned, it's still a question of whether he's good for you or not. And I can't answer that for you, but I ask it because the way you describe this guy makes it sound like you don't value him very highly overall, as a human being. And the way you describe your various frustrations makes it sound like the relationship doesn't make you particularly happy.* And I'm of the opinion that we have these relationships for our fulfillment, in pleasure, in happiness, and in our lives generally. If they don't serve that purpose, but make us miserable instead... well... that's good reason to reassess and make a change.

* Though I could be wrong about any or all of that. Writing these posts surely gives a skewed view of what I'm sure is a complex relationship (as they all are). I'm only basing my responses on what I can read in your posts and infer from there, but if he's actually a great guy, and if you're loving your relationship, then I guess my responses wouldn't be very useful. :)

The sexual attractiveness and sentimentality of him combined with his obvious psychological flaws arouse all the anger I have about the incompetent world and my dramatic self can't help but try to pursue him. I love to feel anger and sexual tension at the same time.

See, here again you lose me... I believe I've observed before (though I don't know that you share) a certain mentality which views "romance" as suffering in its essence -- that values the emotional ups and downs of a chaotic affair, and would find a relationship without those downs somehow lacking. But that's not why I'm in the game, and that isn't what love means to me. Or sex, for that matter. I've heard of angry sex, and even of hate sex, but I don't think I've ever had any of that... nor do I really get the appeal.

For me, love and sex are about pleasure and happiness. If I feel hatred for a woman -- or even anger, howsoever temporarily -- the last thing I'd want with her is intimacy. Even if I decided intellectually that I wanted to have sex, I don't know how I'd get my body to respond the right way.

Perhaps you'd suggest that I could somehow compartmentalize my feelings? Ignore what I otherwise know about a hypothetically awful-yet-beautiful woman in order to enjoy her physical appeal or something? But 1) I don't know that I could accomplish it, and 2) I don't know that would be good for me. In fact, it sounds dangerous. If my anger/hatred is rooted in reason and reality, and if I'm right to feel that way about her generally, then she's probably bad news for my life. If I can switch off my disgust at her character so that I can simply dig on the shape of her legs for a while, then that sounds liable to backfire. It's best to keep folks of disgusting character at arm's length, or farther. (See above, re: Ted Bundy.) ;)

It's kind of like the malevolent universe thing on the peikoff podcasts where he gave the example of the painful medicine, people crying at beautiful weddings etc. except anger and drama in a sexual relationship combined with physical beauty of the man are what's positive to me instead of pain or crying paired with beauty.

I don't know the podcasts in question, so I can't really comment on that, except to reiterate that I don't understand the sexual appeal of anger or drama. But if what you're really saying is that you groove on pain, then I don't guess that lying or anything else should be a problem for your relationship. I mean, if you desire misery in your relationships -- if the drama itself is part of the appeal -- then I guess no advice can really go wrong for you... :)

Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...