How to deal with blatant racism against my ethnic group?

[Dreamspirit]

" It doesn't matter that I am agnostic, they are just irrational, they just associate you with catholics and it doesn't matter what you say you are."

I think it does matter: I would suspect that you being an agnostic or atheist is, if anything, worse than being a Catholic.

If I were you, I'd move. Why stay in a place where you are apparently so disliked, whatever the reason?

Because I have to get an education and some real job experience before I do that, and all the while I am trying to write/read and do my artistic stuff that I really enjoy. It's really hard to manage your own place in a strange place, go to work and school, and make time for writing and self-teaching. I also would rather find a close bf or husband that I could move in with before I do that, for various reasons I won't discuss, and I've got a lot of potential partners that I really like, but they've all got some problems, so I can't move in with somebody anytime soon. I'm so busy anyway that I just ignore the snobby rednecks and it doesn't make much difference. I talk to enough nice people at work and stuff enough to not go crazy. I need to build up a credit history and have some savings before I move to a strange place. If I'm living around here I might as well live with my parents. Plus if I moved somewhere else I wouldn't get all the financial aid I get and that makes it impossible to survive the way I am right now.

[mdegges]

I also would rather find a close bf or husband that I could move in with before I do that, for various reasons I won't discuss, and I've got a lot of potential partners that I really like, but they've all got some problems, so I can't move in with somebody anytime soon.

This is a little OT, but I think it's worth mentioning: it's not a good idea to move right from your father's house into your husband's. You'll miss out on all the exciting independent years.. which are actually really important to experience!

[Dreamspirit]

This is a little OT, but I think it's worth mentioning: it's not a good idea to move right from your father's house into your husband's. You'll miss out on all the exciting independent years.. which are actually really important to experience!

Why is it more of a fun experience than doing those things with a man you love? How is living on your own any more independent than with somebody you're in love with? I think you just didn't find a person who you actually are in love with. I didn't mean to imply that I was going to become a housewife right away. Living with someone you love sexually when you start out on your own is very beneficial to productivity for both emotional and practical reasons. For some personal reasons, it is especially better for me. Two people managing all the finances, repairs, cleaning etc. is much better and less overwelming than doing it all yourself when you are trying to work and learn at the same time. The popular idea that you should wait to pursue a sexual relationship because you're "too young" or its "sexist" is just something society picked up from christian morality and irrational feminism (which I believe actually picked up their irrationality from religion).

Edited November 11, 2011 by Dreamspirit

[RationalBiker]

This is a little OT, but I think it's worth mentioning: it's not a good idea to move right from your father's house into your husband's. You'll miss out on all the exciting independent years.. which are actually really important to experience!

This is pretty good advice. However, sometimes younger people have to actually experience things before they understand why they are a good or bad idea. If we knew at 19 what we know now... that sort of thing. Living with family is not like living with another unrelated person, and living with another person is not completely like living independently.

[mdegges]

Why is it more of a fun experience than doing those things with a man you love? How is living on your own any more independent than with somebody you're in love with? I think you just didn't find a person who you actually are in love with. I didn't mean to imply that I was going to become a housewife right away. Living with someone you love sexually when you start out on your own is very beneficial to productivity for both emotional and practical reasons. For some personal reasons, it is especially better for me. Two people managing all the finances, repairs, cleaning etc. is much better and less overwelming than doing it all yourself when you are trying to work and learn at the same time. The popular idea that you should wait to pursue a sexual relationship because you're "too young" or its "sexist" is just something society picked up from christian morality and irrational feminism (which I believe actually picked up their irrationality from religion).

The main reason people don't live on their own is because they're afraid of being independent.. doing things alone.. whether it's just grocery shopping, watching a movie, studying, whatever. It's just an important part of growing up. I don't know you personally, but I know a ton of people who have jumped into relationships too quickly and deeply regretted it (by this I mean moving in with 'some guy' after a month or two without thinking it through). I'm not saying relationships (sexual or non-sexual) aren't beneficial, because they definitely are. But do you have to find a boyfriend before moving out of your parents house? Not at all. And if you do find a boyfriend, do you have to live in the same apartment as him to get value out of the relationship? Nope. It's called taking things slow.. getting to know someone

Your response sounds very familiar to me, I've heard it many times. "Two people managing all the finances, repairs, cleaning etc. is much better and less overwhelming than doing it all yourself when you are trying to work and learn at the same time." These are all important things to learn how to do yourself without relying on someone else. Once you know how to support yourself alone, you'll find it's much easier to move in with someone else and have a healthy relationship.

[mdegges]

This is pretty good advice. However, sometimes younger people have to actually experience things before they understand why they are a good or bad idea. If we knew at 19 what we know now... that sort of thing. Living with family is not like living with another unrelated person, and living with another person is not completely like living independently.

More than enough 19 year olds have experienced these things and shared their stories.. mostly horror stories.

But seriously, you're definitely right: living with family is not anything like living on your own.. and living on your own is not anything like living with a guy you're involved with.

Edited November 11, 2011 by Michele Degges

[aequalsa]

and living on your own is not anything like living with a guy you're involved with.

I agree completely. It's easy to ignore that on top of "learning to live independently," you're adding, how to manage and maintain a healthy live in relationship-which, incidentally is a much bigger task if you're doing it right. So, not only does it not make it any easier, it will almost certainly make it harder. /peeing on parade

[whYNOT]

More than enough 19 year olds have experienced these things and shared their stories.. mostly horror stories.

But seriously, you're definitely right: living with family is not anything like living on your own.. and living on your own is not anything like living with a guy you're involved with.

I think none of us was really as mature as we thought we were back then (waayyy back then!).

Possibly the best growth one can get is being independent for a long while after moving out of home.

Every decision is made for oneself: you can't get more exciting then that, I believe.

Sharing with someone brings its own pleasure later on.

In general, an interim period before you cohabit, get married, whatever - is valuable.

[Dreamspirit]

The main reason people don't live on their own is because they're afraid of being independent.. doing things alone.. whether it's just grocery shopping, watching a movie, studying, whatever. It's just an important part of growing up. I don't know you personally, but I know a ton of people who have jumped into relationships too quickly and deeply regretted it (by this I mean moving in with 'some guy' after a month or two without thinking it through). I'm not saying relationships (sexual or non-sexual) aren't beneficial, because they definitely are. But do you have to find a boyfriend before moving out of your parents house? Not at all. And if you do find a boyfriend, do you have to live in the same apartment as him to get value out of the relationship? Nope. It's called taking things slow.. getting to know someone

Your response sounds very familiar to me, I've heard it many times. "Two people managing all the finances, repairs, cleaning etc. is much better and less overwhelming than doing it all yourself when you are trying to work and learn at the same time." These are all important things to learn how to do yourself without relying on someone else. Once you know how to support yourself alone, you'll find it's much easier to move in with someone else and have a healthy relationship.

Well, you don't know much about me personally, so you shouldn't be giving this kind of advice. I never asked for advice or a psychologizer to come in here and tell me what I am. You really should check your premises.

[mdegges]

Well, you don't know much about me personally, so you shouldn't be giving this kind of advice. I never asked for advice or a psychologizer to come in here and tell me what I am. You really should check your premises.

If you didn't want me to respond, you shouldn't have responded to my first post (with a bunch of questions).

Also, I didn't say anything about you personally. You must have drawn those conclusions about "what you are" yourself, because I certainly didn't say anything about that.

[whYNOT]

Now, now, Dreamspirit: you received a perfectly valid and benevolent response there - from somebody who apparently has more experience than you. Is it reasonable or rational to ask questions and reject the answers you don't like?

Always check your own premises, first - I advise.

[Dreamspirit]

Now, now, Dreamspirit: you received a perfectly valid and benevolent response there - from somebody who apparently has more experience than you. Is it reasonable or rational to ask questions and reject the answers you don't like?

Always check your own premises, first - I advise.

It is a personal issue she is giving me advice for, and she does not know me personally, so how does she think her advice can be rational? It is so like a typical South African to respond in such a way. You say now now you out of line slave, stay in your place without taking your thick head out of your ass to think. I laugh when your crappy country has an apartheid because you are just so proud and delusional you don't see how ridiculous you are.

Edited November 14, 2011 by Dreamspirit

[mdegges]

That is totally unnecessary. You obviously didn't understand anything he or I said.

[whYNOT]

That is totally unnecessary. You obviously didn't understand anything he or I said.

No problem.

You sometimes find a few people around Objectivism who don't get it that egoism and narcissism are total opposites.

Stroke my 'ego' - or else!

[aequalsa]

It is a personal issue she is giving me advice for, and she does not know me personally, so how does she think her advice can be rational? It is so like a typical South African to respond in such a way. You say now now you out of line slave, stay in your place without taking your thick head out of your ass to think. I laugh when your crappy country has an apartheid because you are just so proud and delusional you don't see how ridiculous you are.

Please tell me that you realize the irony of judging the whole group of South Africans as one unit, in light of the title of this thread?

[Avila]

Dreamspirit,

The way you have reacted to other's well-meaning (and generally wise) advice on this thread, and on the one regarding your boyfriend, suggests to me that it is highly likely that "racism" is NOT the real problem here. You come off as brittle, angry, and thin-skinned, and based on that I'm guessing you've done a good job of alienating people around you. That's the problem, not your last name.

[Dreamspirit]

Dreamspirit,

The way you have reacted to other's well-meaning (and generally wise) advice on this thread, and on the one regarding your boyfriend, suggests to me that it is highly likely that "racism" is NOT the real problem here. You come off as brittle, angry, and thin-skinned, and based on that I'm guessing you've done a good job of alienating people around you. That's the problem, not your last name.

People do not become angry and neutral about alienating others for no reason. I was discriminated against for so many years before I started becoming angry. Being discriminated against is one of the most common reasons people come to distrust others. I'm a stickler for morality, perhaps this is why you and the people around me are so focused on degrading me. You should check your thinking on this, because your post sounds idiotic. You answered your own question. I was a brittle, angry person when I was 10, 12?

Edited November 22, 2011 by Dreamspirit

[Dreamspirit]

Please tell me that you realize the irony of judging the whole group of South Africans as one unit, in light of the title of this thread?

I don't like their culture, just like Ayn Rand disliked muslim culture. I'm not judging anyone by their background, I'm judging them by their behavior, and that includes following a culture that I dislike if they're over 18. I don't follow Polish or neo European American stuff and if I did I'd give you the right to judge me. I don't greet people with those annoying invasion of your space hugs and so on.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Dreamspirit

[softwareNerd]

... ... Ayn Rand disliked muslim culture. ... ...

Do you have some particular reference in mind here?

[Dreamspirit]

Do you have some particular reference in mind here?

She said word for word that she holds their primitive culture against them, and I agree with her. If they don't follow that culture then obviously I wouldn't still judge them because of their racial or familial background, now that would be immoral. Colonial South African culture is basically a culture with no achievements, it consists of them benefiting from the forceful enslavement of the native negroids. Any hint of achievement in their culture is something they copied from the Europeans they descend from. It shows in how they treat people, their way of phrasing things etc. and it is absolutely not hypocritical for me to condemn their culture.

Edited November 23, 2011 by Dreamspirit

[softwareNerd]

She said word for word that she holds their primitive culture against them, ...

Thanks for the link. I was curious, because none of her published works appear to mention Islam or Muslims. BTW, even in this clip, she mentions "Arabs", not muslims. Anyhow, I don't intend to derail your original topic; I just like to clarify such Rand references in order to check back with the original.

[aequalsa]

I don't like their culture, just like Ayn Rand disliked muslim culture. I'm not judging anyone by their background, I'm judging them by their behavior, and that includes following a culture that I dislike if they're over 18. I don't follow Polish or neo European American stuff and if I did I'd give you the right to judge me. I don't greet people with those annoying invasion of your space hugs and so on.

So you think that a pro-liberty individual with a significant posting history to that effect is an advocate of a system which hasn't existed for more than 20 years now, because he lives in South Africa? I suppose it's possible to assume he's a bigot, but then again, it's also possible that he's a true victim of racism who is far more likely to have had experiences which you could learn from if you could manage to tuck away your defensiveness for a moment.

After all, since apartheid has ended the new black ruled socialist state has taken away the farms and given them to few politically connected blacks(nearly all of them now failing) which collectively has turned south africa from a food exporting nation to an importing one. They've released thousands of prisoners(murderers and terrorists larely) and unleashed them on the white population. Mandela called it a "gift to South Africa" I think. Crime against the remaining white farmers goes almost completely unresponded to, not least of which is the more than 50,000(the true number is much, much higher but the police force is immeasurably incompetent) rapes every year that make it the rape capital of the world, or the more than(at least) 20,000 child rapes that occur each year as these thugs use children in these horrible ways. The large number of infant rapes are especially sad since they often die in the act. Of course, that's probably a blessing since this child raping epidemic is largely an out growth of these savages mythical belief that sex with a virgin will cure their aids, which is rampant and spreading quickly through rape. Because the police do not arrest the rapists, it's not uncommon for the same rapist to rape the same woman on multiple occasions. A national past time is to gather together 12 of your closest friends, kidnap a young blonde girl, give everyone a turn and then leave her for dead. sensible people would leave and in fact many have but most can't due to immigration laws and many who have, have since had to return because the their jobs were lost changing their immigration status.

So that's a small part of the world he lives in and what true racial hate looks like. You can read all about it if you would care to make a more informed opinion My guess, if I had to make an assumption about whynot's character based on his culture, is that he's quite courageous and has endured some difficult things personally, or with people close to him. Things which build character and provide him the wisdom to realize the futility of trying to defend himself morally from your utterly and completely unjustifiable assumptions about his character. of course, I've never been to South Africa and haven't met the fellow personally so I'd rather withhold judgement.

[whYNOT]

So you think that a pro-liberty individual with a significant ...My guess, if I had to make an assumption about whynot's character based on his culture, is that he's quite courageous and has endured some difficult things personally, or with people close to him. Things which build character and provide him the wisdom to realize the futility of trying to defend himself morally from your utterly and completely unjustifiable assumptions about his character. of course, I've never been to South Africa and haven't met the fellow personally so I'd rather withhold judgement.

This is one I'll stay out of, I think!

All the more reason, aequalsa, that I am appreciative you've insisted that facts and rationality

prevail (and for putting in a good word for me.)

[mdegges]

His "culture" doesn't have anything to do with the comments he's made. All he said was, "Is it reasonable or rational to ask questions and reject the answers you don't like?" The answer is no, and that's exactly what you were doing. Your comment "now now you out of line slave, stay in your place without taking your thick head out of your ass to think" had nothing to do with what he said. At all. He was basically saying that you should think about what you say before you say it (which is good advice, btw - you can learn a lot from it). I think you realized you couldn't pin anything negative on him from his comments alone, so you threw culture into the mix..basically by saying, "I don't like his culture so he doesn't know what he's talking about." Nice one.