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The Value Of Small Talk

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Yeah JASKN,

I do remember a thread where you reported your findings after choosing to basically say "okay screw the moralizing, I'm just going to have a good social life for a while and see what that's like." :-) And that thread actually inspired me to do the same, to a degree.

One thing that held me back, was the belief that I should be like Rand's heroes, never experiencing any anxiety or care over what people thought of me, and that if I was only perfect like them, I would handle all my social interactions with ease, automatically. This is the opposite of the premise that one has to practice to get better at something. And it was reinforced by the fact that, maybe once a week or once a month, I would have a "Rand moment" where I felt that I had succeeded in being "Rand hero-esque" in my interaction with somebody, AND it had produced a positive result. That was enough to make me feel like it was what I should be doing, and that practicing social success was being Peter Keating and selling out.

But ultimately, not having any friends and feeling like I had to do everything myself (without study partners, even) and thinking that I had to be a Rand hero when interacting with my guitar instructor (classical guitar was my major), ended up completely burning me out, and I left college. (Though, to be fair, the last semester I was in a really noisy dorm and it was a genuine battle, trying to get a good night's sleep every night, and that really stressed me out.)

Edited by musenji
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Instead of faking it I prefer the attitude of: "Screw this! Here I am - take it or leave it!". The point is to be open, honest, and above all else - authentic. The problem with faking it is that it's, well... fake. You success will be determined by your acting skills. While in the end it may turn out fine, to get there you're likely to be in constant conflict with yourself. Atleast that's how it's worked out for me. I think it's better to just accept who you are, and let others accept that too - warts and all. From there, just work on your weaknesses.

Speaking of small talk. Here's a little tip: Set the tone and take the lead. If you don't like where a conversation is going, or maybe it isn't going anywhere, just change the subject or say something to break the ice a little further. I'm not saying you should avoid all small talk, like others here I also find it valuable, but if social interactions aren't going your way - steer them in the direction you want. Ask people for their opninion on a subject that interests you, or tell a story about something you wish to share with them. If you can't find anything to talk about you can bring in the heavy artillery - the social faux pas.

Someone once told me that the most important rule in any social interaction is to break all the rules atleast once, and see what happens. And what happens is that people will open up, feel more at ease and the conversations will be much more interesting. The reason being that you just took a big risk, raised the bar and with a little sense for delivery they will laugh. If you can get away with saying that, sureley they can speak more freely.

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Alfa, I have to say, you talking about breaking all the rules once really got my imagination going.

Currently I have a job as a janitor for a couple of different buildings. One of them, a factory, includes a long cafeteria room, probably about 20 by 100 feet, with two rows of four tables placed long-ways down the line. I spray the tables with a cleaner before wiping them down, walking down the line to squirt each one twice.

My imagination led me to an image of coming in with shades and a super soaker, pumping up, and spraying every table from the door, haha. I can't imagine, though, what the people would be thinking as I walked to and from the room. :-)

Edited by musenji
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The idea of "fake it until you make it" has some merit to it. Faking in the sense of falsely acknowledging agreement, acting based on the minds of others, or lying are not what I'm talking about. What I mean is acting in a way that is new, and socializing in a way that you isn't in your character. If you are trying to learn social skills, you need to do something you aren't used to. If it's not "you" to be socially comfortable, then any new way isn't "you". You are being fake to some extent by incorporating new styles, sometimes styles you are skeptical of. Sometimes, you just need to try a new behavior only because you know it works. Hopefully, a new behavior will provide the results you want. Then, you'll practice more to make the new behavior a habit. Continue long enough, and it'll become natural.

My imagination led me to an image of coming in with shades and a super soaker, pumping up, and spraying every table from the door, haha. I can't imagine, though, what the people would be thinking as I walked to and from the room. :-)

This is similar to a thought I had where socialization doesn't have to be only talk. Socialization can involve wordless actions. I prefer to use wordless actions rather than establishing conversations in social/casual settings. Or even workplace settings. I'm not usually comfortable talking in casual social groups unless a close friend is with me. I am much more comfortable doing unpredictable or silly things. If I had your job, I totally would use a super soaker. Not only is it more fun for me, but other people may be curious and start a conversation. Perhaps another thing to do in some settings is bring tea, bring some cookies that you baked, or any kind of "nice thing". Words aren't your only option!

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If you're standing on a cliff, looking down at the water far below, do you admit that the idea of jumping in scares you or do you pretend that it doesn't? What i'm suggesting is to simply accept the fact that you're scared, but dive right in if it's the right thing to do.

So what if you're not socially comfortable? Should you try and maintain the act of looking really cool, or just accept the fact that you're uncofortable - without letting that stop you? I think in the end being socially comfortable means being comfortable with yourself and standing up for who you are and what you want. Alot of anxiety comes from not accepting yourself, fear of rejection and trying to adapt to what others want from you. If you build a fake act on top of that it takes you further away from solving the more fundamental issue. You're putting on an act that isn't you, when what you need to do is the old cliché of "just be yourself".

This does not mean that you should just accept that you're alone and socially awkward without doing something about it. I would rather suggest doing things you're not comfortable with, meet new people, practice your social skills etc. Just do it without pretending.

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Alfa, I have to say, you talking about breaking all the rules once really got my imagination going.

Currently I have a job as a janitor for a couple of different buildings. One of them, a factory, includes a long cafeteria room, probably about 20 by 100 feet, with two rows of four tables placed long-ways down the line. I spray the tables with a cleaner before wiping them down, walking down the line to squirt each one twice.

My imagination led me to an image of coming in with shades and a super soaker, pumping up, and spraying every table from the door, haha. I can't imagine, though, what the people would be thinking as I walked to and from the room. :-)

Hehe, I would suggest starting small before working up to the grand finale. ;)

But hey, alteast you would have something to laugh at. That alone has to be worth something. :D

Another suggestion would be to look at the jargon you have with your buddies. I don't know about you, but I think most people have a different jargon with their closest friends than with colleagues, or... people of the opposite sex. Try some of that in new situations as a start.

Next time someone asks you how you're doing tell them your balls are itching and you need to buy new razors. Crude? Yes. Inapropriate? Absolutley. There are probably a ton of good reason not to say it. But the worst thing that could happen is someone thinks you're a little weird. Or you could get lucky like me, and it's a start of a new friendship.

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I don't think the phrase "be yourself" really has much meaning. At least in my case, trying to be myself is not much of a problem, but it doesn't get me what I want. I wouldn't have any personal concerns about socialization if all I had to do is act natural. When you want to fix something, natural is exactly what you don't want. You have to figure out what you need to work on, then use different strategies than you have used all along. Of course that's vague, but that's where books on conversation or even social psychology can help out, mixed with personal experience.

I've been in plenty of situations where I've been anxious to talk to someone. Not really because of a fear of rejection (well, maybe a little) and not at all to do with not accepting myself, but because it was so outside what I usually do. I don't know what's going to happen, so I don't really know what actions I want to take. I have a goal of getting to know a person that appears very interesting, but I don't know at all what steps to reach that goal! Flailing about by doing whatever comes to mind isn't an answer. Acting "myself" won't help because there isn't even a "myself" to refer to in this situation. Yeah, I have some friends that I'm comfortable with, but I can't use that in this new situation. The new person isn't even a friend yet.

So, what do I do when I feel totally locked on what to say or do? I have to use an "act" in some sense. As I said before, I don't mean anything second-handed. What I mean is choosing a method of socialization that feels alien enough that it also feels fake. I can acknowledge that yes, I am a little anxious, but I can force myself to say some positive, nice words. I can make myself appear perfectly happy even if I'm really quite nervous at the time. By doing this, I can produce at least a pleasant, brief conversation. The more I've done this sort of thing, the more it feels natural and "me".

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I don't think the phrase "be yourself" really has much meaning. At least in my case, trying to be myself is not much of a problem, but it doesn't get me what I want. I wouldn't have any personal concerns about socialization if all I had to do is act natural. When you want to fix something, natural is exactly what you don't want. You have to figure out what you need to work on, then use different strategies than you have used all along. Of course that's vague, but that's where books on conversation or even social psychology can help out, mixed with personal experience.

Relevant (also, I love Community):

Edited by Dante
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I don't think the phrase "be yourself" really has much meaning.

I did not just put it out there separate of context.

At least in my case, trying to be myself is not much of a problem, but it doesn't get me what I want. I wouldn't have any personal concerns about socialization if all I had to do is act natural. When you want to fix something, natural is exactly what you don't want.

If you mean natural in the sense of just doing what you've always done and what you're comfortable with, then it will certainly not fix anything. That's not what I was suggesting either.

You have to figure out what you need to work on, then use different strategies than you have used all along. Of course that's vague, but that's where books on conversation or even social psychology can help out, mixed with personal experience.

Yes, you have to take different actions than what you've done before. I think it's a good idea to examine your behavior, what motivates it and how to improve it.

I've been in plenty of situations where I've been anxious to talk to someone. Not really because of a fear of rejection (well, maybe a little) and not at all to do with not accepting myself, but because it was so outside what I usually do. I don't know what's going to happen, so I don't really know what actions I want to take. I have a goal of getting to know a person that appears very interesting, but I don't know at all what steps to reach that goal! Flailing about by doing whatever comes to mind isn't an answer. Acting "myself" won't help because there isn't even a "myself" to refer to in this situation. Yeah, I have some friends that I'm comfortable with, but I can't use that in this new situation. The new person isn't even a friend yet.

So I suggest recognizing that it's a new situation and that you haven't yet decided how to handle it. What I suggest not doing is pretending you are Mr. Suave when you're not.

So, what do I do when I feel totally locked on what to say or do?

I recommend checking what's on your mind and just pick something. Blurting can be a good idea. Just make sure you're not censoring yourself. If you're still just drawing blanks... well, if you don't have anything to say or do then don't.

I have to use an "act" in some sense.

Why?

What I mean is choosing a method of socialization that feels alien enough that it also feels fake.

Why choose a method of socialization that feels alien? What i'm suggesting is taking actions towards what you really want, even if it makes you uncomfortable or whatever. Just don't pretend it's something it's not.

I can take Dante's youtube-clip as an example:

So you want to talk to that girl but it's scary and uncomfortable? Do you:

1. Accept that you're feeling scared and uncomfortable, be upfront and honest about it and just go for it? "Hi, i'm Alfa... I don't usually do this because i'm shy, and really nervous, but I really wanted to talk to you"

or

2. Pretend that you're awesome with the ladies. "Yo! What up sexy girl? I just noticed you noticing me and wanted to put you on notice that..."

I can acknowledge that yes, I am a little anxious, but I can force myself to say some positive, nice words. I can make myself appear perfectly happy even if I'm really quite nervous at the time. By doing this, I can produce at least a pleasant, brief conversation. The more I've done this sort of thing, the more it feels natural and "me".

And I can say "darn it, i'm feeling really nervous", perhaps adding "just so you know... i'm not really on drugs". The problem isn't saying something nice or keeping your emotions under control. It's pretending that things aren't really what they are.

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Hah! Ayn Rand didn't like small talk either. Surprise surprise!

Still, according to Peikoff, she used it in an attempt to put him at ease. Small talk is good that way. It's a way of showing that you value relationships with other people and creating a friendly and relaxed atmosphere. No one likes the actual small talk itself. Well, with a possible exception of a collegue of mine whom i've never heard utter a single word of consequence. He's also incredibly boring and meaningsless. Normal people just don't have that much to say about the weather. The important thing about small talk is what's between the lines, and from what Peikoff said there I think Ayn Rand saw that as well.

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Still, according to Peikoff, she used it in an attempt to put him at ease. Small talk is good that way. It's a way of showing that you value relationships with other people and creating a friendly and relaxed atmosphere. No one likes the actual small talk itself. Well, with a possible exception of a collegue of mine whom i've never heard utter a single word of consequence. He's also incredibly boring and meaningsless. Normal people just don't have that much to say about the weather. The important thing about small talk is what's between the lines, and from what Peikoff said there I think Ayn Rand saw that as well.

I agree, I was just trying to make a humorous observation. Gotta practice, ya know. :)

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One of my favorite scenes in ST:TNG, where there is an incessant small-talker who attempts to chat up members of the enterprise crew. Most of the crew avoid him, or try to slip away, but Data takes to imitating the man, and they strike up a conversation about total trivia. Another crew member says, "I don't know which one to feel sorry for!"

...Just the first half. I wish they hadn't overlaid the clips, but oh well.

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Why choose a method of socialization that feels alien? What i'm suggesting is taking actions towards what you really want, even if it makes you uncomfortable or whatever. Just don't pretend it's something it's not.

I can take Dante's youtube-clip as an example:

1. Accept that you're feeling scared and uncomfortable, be upfront and honest about it and just go for it? "Hi, i'm Alfa... I don't usually do this because i'm shy, and really nervous, but I really wanted to talk to you"

or

2. Pretend that you're awesome with the ladies. "Yo! What up sexy girl? I just noticed you noticing me and wanted to put you on notice that..."

I'm suggesting that if a person is trying to learn how to be socially productive (by productive I mean achieving goals), really any method chosen would feel alien on account of being un-natural. It's worse to engage the nervousness/anxiety about how you don't know what to do, because it basically reinforces your reason to be nervous. I feel like I achieve more if I choose a desired way of acting rather than doing something like being upfront about how I don't like talking to new people. In other words, I wouldn't go with either choice you presented. I want to interact with people better, not inform them that "Hey, this is odd for me, but I wanted to talk to you". I've tried it. It doesn't work well. I'm not being dishonest by not announcing that I get nervous. I can act confident because I know how, and that more or less dominates my nervousness. At least, if I do it right.

The best thing to do is probably do something like a method actor would. You automatize the behaviors associated with your character's goals in order to present yourself as authentic. The only difference in a social situation is that you actually want to pursue the goals of your "character". You might not like my wording there, but character is just about the goals you want to pursue, whether in a fictional role, or trying to establish what kind of person you are. You will come across as "not you" if you're trying to be more socially productive.

I get the impression that you have pretty much always been comfortable socially (if I'm wrong, please let me know). I pretty much decided to be more social one day, so I basically started from scratch. A lot of reading I've done has helped me, *especially* reading "An Actor Prepares" by Stanislavski.

Edited by Eiuol
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I'm suggesting that if a person is trying to learn how to be socially productive (by productive I mean achieving goals), really any method chosen would feel alien on account of being un-natural.

Sure, your actions may feel all kinds of strange if they're far out of your comfort zone. That's allright. Let them. I was reacting to the word 'method' that you used, but i'm not quite sure what you mean by that.

It's worse to engage the nervousness/anxiety about how you don't know what to do, because it basically reinforces your reason to be nervous.

Then you're taking the wrong attitude towards it. The point is letting go of the negative focus, the pressure, the demands and the expectations you're putting on yourself.

So you're nervous and you don't quite know what to do. Let's face it, you're probably going to screw a few things up. And people are going to notice, too. Learn to be fine with that and accept it. Not as a permanent state, but as a temporary weakness. It's part of who you are today. Accept that and move on.

I feel like I achieve more if I choose a desired way of acting rather than doing something like being upfront about how I don't like talking to new people. In other words, I wouldn't go with either choice you presented. I want to interact with people better, not inform them that "Hey, this is odd for me, but I wanted to talk to you". I've tried it. It doesn't work well. I'm not being dishonest by not announcing that I get nervous. I can act confident because I know how, and that more or less dominates my nervousness. At least, if I do it right.

You're not being dishonest by not announcing that you get nervous. But in some context it may be desirable to inform others what's going on with you. That's being open, and such openess can help get the problem out of the way - both for you and whoever you're talking to.

Acting confident when you're not is actually not really honest. And I like to give a friendly warning there as well... if you're out dating women your confidence will be tested. Some will try and tear you apart if they doubt your authenticity.

The best thing to do is probably do something like a method actor would. You automatize the behaviors associated with your character's goals in order to present yourself as authentic. The only difference in a social situation is that you actually want to pursue the goals of your "character". You might not like my wording there, but character is just about the goals you want to pursue, whether in a fictional role, or trying to establish what kind of person you are. You will come across as "not you" if you're trying to be more socially productive.

I suggest instead automatizing the behavior of keeping an absolute focus on reality, always sticking to the truth and never hiding or faking anything.

I get the impression that you have pretty much always been comfortable socially (if I'm wrong, please let me know). I pretty much decided to be more social one day, so I basically started from scratch. A lot of reading I've done has helped me, *especially* reading "An Actor Prepares" by Stanislavski.

On the contrary. I've always been an introvert. Never had many friends and i've stood alone most of my life. I've suffered tremendous heartbreak because of it. That's why this discusion interests me.

I've actually spent years trying to figure things out and improving myself. Tried the fake it til you make it approach, read lots of books, observed and interacted with people etc. The funny thing is... I still get nervous sometimes, say or do the wrong things and I bet some people think i'm a bit strange as well. But... I don't really care. I'm very happy with myself, tend to quickly make friends when I meet new people, I have a job that's very demanding on social skills and so and so forth. My point is, what once seemed like a huge problem is miniscule today. I still have areas to work on, but things are going really well. So my advice is based on going from failure towards having real success.

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Yeah, small talk is like...the mood-setter. It sets a positive environment in which more significant things can be said.

I'm curious, what actually brought you to the point where you were willing to consider the issue, and start a thread such as this?

My perceived ineptitude to "climb the ladder" in a relationship to get to the point where the other person thinks of me as a trustworthy, loyal, friendly acquaintance (which I very much can be).

I ask because: When I was in college, I actually "boycotted small talk" for a time, to the degree that I would not even answer the question "how are you", because people "didn't really mean it" and "didn't want an honest, thoughtful answer". It did not bode well for my social life. I wish I would have learned faster, opened my mind up sooner. It took years of loneliness for that to happen.

I'm so sorry.

Second question, since I glanced at your profile: how did you come to read almost exclusively non-fiction about Objectivism, rather than the fiction first?

Because I wanted to be able to defend myself from a completely analytical perspective (I know I'm invoking the analytic-synthetic dichotomy here, but bear with me for a moment) from people who wanted to attack me on ethical grounds vs. telling them to go read AS/FH (the latter being especially difficult to do when English is not their native tongue (I'm not saying it's mine either, but I do believe I've come to the point where I can express myself better in English than my native tongue) and no one knows who Rand is). (Now I just ignore those whom I've realized I can't affect.) I am also a recovering rationalist and narcissist, and logical deliberation used to provide a great deal of pleasure for my inner intellectual narcissist.

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  • 1 month later...

Isn't that obvious (that everyone should be on the same page)? If it's not, then it's the job of the superior to fix any issues with that.

Yeah, and if you ever want to BE a superior, you'd better make it YOUR job. Otherwise you'll spend the rest of your life being what you've made yourself: a clueless peon waiting for someone else to take the initiative, figure out the state of the business, and deliver your orders.

Friends are chosen.

So are your business associates, and you'll be in a lot better position to make decisions about your current and future involvement with them if you learn about them.

Now, I'm not in favor of inane small talk per se, and it's been my experience that even people who seem to utter NOTHING other than inane small talk aren't often that keen on it themselves. Possibly silence makes them nervous. Possibly they feel it's their responsibility to be hospitable and keeping up the flow of chatter is their way of trying to entertain other people. Maybe they're just lonely and seeking SOME kind of connection with other people, no matter how banal. The trick is not to become good at or enjoy the small talk, it's to become the kind of good conversationalist who can connect ANY topic to their own experiences or things that they DO find interesting, and thus establish some common ground.

So instead of going out of your way to chat about the weather if you REALLY JUST DON'T CARE, learn to see the connections between other people's blather and things you DO care about, then bring those into the conversation. Much more rewarding, and you'll get a reputation for being broad-minded and intelligent in the bargain. Er, assuming you are, and you have more than one interest to talk about. Otherwise you're just another species of bore.

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  • 1 month later...

Yeah, and if you ever want to BE a superior, you'd better make it YOUR job. Otherwise you'll spend the rest of your life being what you've made yourself: a clueless peon waiting for someone else to take the initiative, figure out the state of the business, and deliver your orders.

So it's either "lead, follow or get out of the way"? There's absolutely nothing morally wrong with being a follower your whole life.

So are your business associates, and you'll be in a lot better position to make decisions about your current and future involvement with them if you learn about them.

I don't have the luxury of choosing my associates, so that spectrum of choice can safely be thrown out of consideration.

So instead of going out of your way to chat about the weather if you REALLY JUST DON'T CARE, learn to see the connections between other people's blather and things you DO care about, then bring those into the conversation. Much more rewarding, and you'll get a reputation for being broad-minded and intelligent in the bargain. Er, assuming you are, and you have more than one interest to talk about. Otherwise you're just another species of bore.

Apart from work-related interests, I have a set of interests which happens to intersect very poorly with the interests of the people I work with. I certainly don't care if they think I'm boring because of that.

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So it's either "lead, follow or get out of the way"? There's absolutely nothing morally wrong with being a follower your whole life.

I don't have the luxury of choosing my associates, so that spectrum of choice can safely be thrown out of consideration.

In Objectivism, independence is a virtue. And the means to independence is to not be a follower your whole life. That's one of the ways you acquire the luxury of choosing your associates.

So yes, there is something morally wrong with being a follower your whole life.

Edited by Nicky
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In Objectivism, independence is a virtue.

But not in reality? Why not just say "Independence is a virtue."? Do you regard Objectivism as disconnected from reality? Are you a Libertarian? That would make sense.

And the means to independence is to not be a follower your whole life.

What about 80% of your life? 50%? 20%? Where do you draw that line? Is it OK to be a follower your entire childhood?

Are you a follower if you obey your parents? So when do you stop being a follower? When you stop listening to your parents? Your boss? When you have your own company?

So if you work for someone else, you're a follower? You're not independent?

That's one of the ways you acquire the luxury of choosing your associates.

Until the government steps in.

So yes, there is something morally wrong with being a follower your whole life.

What?

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But not in reality? Why not just say "Independence is a virtue."? Do you regard Objectivism as disconnected from reality?

You are posting at ObjectivismOnline.com...

What about 80% of your life? 50%? 20%?

In principle, it's never good to be a follower. You've got to rely on your own thinking to improve your life.

Until the government steps in.

This isn't relavent to the discussion, but assuming it was, what is your point here? If the government intrudes on your life does that change the fact that you have to do your own thinking?

What?

You can't know something is true until you've done the mental steps to prove it to yourself. There may be instances where you trust someone's judgement despite your own ignorance, but that person needed to earn your trust via your own judgement of his person prior, and you will need to verify his conclusions later. Since everything begins with your mind, and you've got to use your own mind (not someone else's, and someone can't use your mind for you) to figure out right from wrong for yourself, it is morally wrong to follow blindly in principle instead of independently judging for yourself.
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But not in reality? Why not just say "Independence is a virtue."?

Because I'm not looking to get into a wider debate about whether it is or not also a virtue "in reality".

If we all insisted to make every answer about "reality", instead of sticking to discussing what Objectivism has to say on various topics, then every thread would turn into the same exact debate: is Objectivism right or wrong?

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Because I'm not looking to get into a wider debate about whether it is or not also a virtue "in reality".

If we all insisted to make every answer about "reality", instead of sticking to discussing what Objectivism has to say on various topics, then every thread would turn into the same exact debate: is Objectivism right or wrong?

Here's a thread that inquired about "reality" without delineating it according to Objectivism.

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This isn't relavent to the discussion, but assuming it was, what is your point here? If the government intrudes on your life does that change the fact that you have to do your own thinking?

The point here is that it's completely useless to be independent if you want to get anything done if your work is decided by an authority.

"Ah yes, my boss wants me to get this done, but let me think this through and see if it's actually the right thing to do and if it's not, I'll --" you'll do what, exactly? Whine?

You can be "independent" all you want -- in your brain. But in reality, you have no choice but to follow, at least initially -- your parents, your boss, the majority, the government, etc. It's this grand delusion of 'freedom' that one can uphold in a bubble, but it's almost completely gone in this world.

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