Thomas M. Miovas Jr. Posted June 22, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2012 Maybe Crow isn't reading my posts or something, but I pointed out to him earlier that NO barter is not illegal. But barter is not the same thing as having a monetary system -- with designated denominations of some value apportioned on Notes or even a metal based coin system. It has be tried in various times and even if it is not illegal at the time, the Feds have always come in and shut it down. It would be far too embarrassing and would blow the cover if a private bank had silver or gold money (Note or coins) and one could see in a short period of time that their value would increase over time with regard to the conversion to gold or silver not bound up in coins or Notes. The Feds know the game and know it very well, and no, they are not going to let you have a competing currency any more than they will let you have a large private schooling system where you set the standards. It's a game of force, and they hold all the laws and jails on their side. So, without changing a lot of laws and dismantling the Federal Reserve system, you are not going to get anywhere with making your protest money. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Miovas Jr. Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) No one has brought this up yet, in this thread, but it is the US Congress who has the final say on what is and what is not money within the USA. It was a power granted to Congress by the Founders, and in my opinion, one of their mistakes that is coming back to haunt us. Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States; To borrow Money on the credit of the United States; To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes; To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States; To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures; http://www.archives.gov/exhibits/charters/constitution_transcript.html Edited June 23, 2012 by Thomas M. Miovas Jr. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowEpistemologist Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 They might well be. It would be interesting if there was a real test case where the new currency did not claim to be "dollars", "constitutional" etc.. Since money's everyday function is as a medium of exchange, people want money that other people think of as money. Widespread acceptance is a feature that people look for in money. It would be a huge hurdle to try to get widespread acceptance of some new type of money. Think of it from your own perspective: if you had something to sell and someone offered to pay you in gold would you accept? You may or may not; but if you do, it would have to be by doing a dollar conversion in your head. The gold is worthless to you as money unless you can convert it into dollars. You might be happy to hold gold as an asset, but not as money. Except for the ideology -- the liberty dollar example -- there's no good reason to own gold etc. as money. People have little incentive to create a new money. There are things that have some features of money (e.g. trading stamps, credit-card air-miles), but do not come close to being money. I doubt we'll see a good test-case any time soon. You make the distinction I was trying to make: that currency can be used as a medium of exchange or as a means of investment (the latter being far more rare these days). In the first case, the issue of inflation has little/no effect on you since you need only to hold the asset for only a short period of time (and in today's terms, that could be milliseconds). In the case of the second, you are actually betting on the currency's long-term stability. However in reality that is almost never done, and if it is done, there's no fraud present: investors in US dollars know exactly what they are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowEpistemologist Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 No one has brought this up yet, in this thread, but it is the US Congress who has the final say on what is and what is not money within the USA. It was a power granted to Congress by the Founders, and in my opinion, one of their mistakes that is coming back to haunt us. They said that Congress can mint money. Nowhere does it say that they exclusively have this right. The rest can be chalked up to what is essentially a trademark issue: you don't get to call your currency "US dollars" but making up your own name (e.g. "Linden Dollars") is perfectly fine. It was a mistake to put the US government in the business of minting money, yes, but generally this had no impact until the 70s when the currency was melted down--and it hasn't had any impact since. Making up problems where there is none is dangerous. If some of these freedoms we do have become threatened then that will indeed be terrible. Ron Paul and his ilk will serve to muddy this entire issue by making up absurd problems when there isn't any, and then, when his ideas are thoroughly and correctly exposed as devoid of reason, the baby will be thrown out with the bathwater. Part of fighting for freedom is recognizing and defending the ones you still have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Miovas Jr. Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I guess if you are going to live in the fantasy world "Second Life" which uses virtual money (Linden Dollars), then anything is possible and one can imagine that the polices of the Federal Reserve since 1933 when gold was confiscated and no longer served as the basis of US money, then, no, nothing happened of any consequences. Get real. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowEpistemologist Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I guess if you are going to live in the fantasy world "Second Life" which uses virtual money (Linden Dollars), then anything is possible and one can imagine that the polices of the Federal Reserve since 1933 when gold was confiscated and no longer served as the basis of US money, then, no, nothing happened of any consequences. Get real. Linden Dollars are quite real, and quite legal, and people ascribe real value to them which they trade for other real-world valuable things like cars and food and maid service. Also, FYI, owning gold is legal now... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Miovas Jr. Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I'm going to repost think Wikipedia Link regarding the Liberty Dollar and how the government handled this private creation of tradeable money. It's illegal to coin your own money, even if you claim that it was never intended to be anything other than some sort of collector's item. The founder of the Liberty Dollar is in jail, charged with so many crimes so as to be a test case for future violators attempting to run their own mint for the purpose of creating sound money. Liberty Dollar. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowEpistemologist Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I'm going to repost think Wikipedia Link regarding the Liberty Dollar and how the government handled this private creation of tradeable money. It's illegal to coin your own money, even if you claim that it was never intended to be anything other than some sort of collector's item. The founder of the Liberty Dollar is in jail, charged with so many crimes so as to be a test case for future violators attempting to run their own mint for the purpose of creating sound money. Liberty Dollar. "The Justice Department also stated that the Liberty Dollar was confusingly similar to actual U.S. currency, and the language used on NORFED's website was deceptive.[15]" They are criminals, nothing more. They intentionally made their coins look like US government coins, called them "dollars" along with another word found on every US minted coin. They did everything they could to fool people into thinking that their product came from someplace it did not. It's criminal trademark violation and they obviously knew exactly what they were doing (which, to be clear, I don't know what they were trying to accomplish in an overall sense). Meanwhile, there are thousands of companies across the US making coins out of every metal including gold and silver every day. There are hundreds of private currencies in use. None of them are in jail. I wonder why? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_community_currencies_in_the_United_States Anyhow, I think the above defense of criminals sorta makes my point from a few posts ago... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) This statute means that all United States money as identified above is a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. There is, however, no Federal statute mandating that a private business, a person, or an organization must accept currency or coins as payment for goods or services. Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether to accept cash unless there is a state law which says otherwise." You're equivocating between cash and dollars. Yes, businesses are free to refuse cash, and accept only credit cards. What's your point? If you think taking something besides US dollars for payment is illegal, by all means report these people. They are all presumably breaking the law: http://www.barterquest.com/ That site is for individuals looking to barter on the down low. Your statement, which I called false, was referring to Apple selling Iphones. If Apple used that site to sell Iphones for diamonds, they would be charged with tax evasion. Edited June 23, 2012 by Nicky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) http://en.wikipedia....e_United_States Anyhow, I think the above defense of criminals sorta makes my point from a few posts ago... There is no mention of even a single business that refuses to use US dollars, in your link. So it definitely doesn't make your point that they are free to do so. All it proves is that they may also use other currencies, as long as they take dollars, and exchange the non-dollar part of their income back into dollars. Edited June 23, 2012 by Nicky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) If Apple used that site to sell Iphones for diamonds, they would be charged with tax evasion.Barter is not illegal, nor does barter imply tax-evasion. People are free to barter and to not accept the equivalent in dollars. The law says you have to pay taxes, and this is done in dollar terms. As an example, I can offer book-keeping services to someone who owns a vacation cottage, and -- for my services -- he can give me a week at the cottage. This is legal. To the IRS, the cottage-stay is income even though it is not in dollars. Since they require everything to be expressed in dollars, I would declare the cottage stay as income, by converting it. If a similar duration stay in a similar cottage would have cost me $1,000 , then I received $1,000 worth of income. I pay taxes on that -- in dollars. The main reason barter does not take off is that is is highly inconvenient. Edited June 23, 2012 by softwareNerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Miovas Jr. Posted June 23, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 I think those who don't understand real money (CE) nor understand how the US Government has a lock-down on currency used in the United States (CE) ought to really check their premises about the legality of opening a private bank / mint for the sole purpose of creating a new currency to be used in monetary transactions. As far as I am concerned after doing more research, all the charges against the Liberty Dollar were trumped up against them for the sole purpose of shutting them down. There might -- and I stress might -- be some grounds for something like a trademark violation and the coin was too similar to US issued coins of silver, but that could have been changed easily, and no it wasn't counterfeiting in the least bit. If you are going to be extremely dense about currency and extremely gullible about what the Federal Reserve / US Government is up to, then go right ahead and create you Crow Epistemologist Bank issuing CEB Dollars. Maybe they will even let you post to oo.net from jail; who knows? But is most certainly should not be illegal to mint coins from silver or gold as issued by a private bank / mint. As to the other "local currencies" listed, hardly any (if any) had a link to check them out, and most are just tokens anyhow, like Aladdin's Castle has token to use in their gaming machines. But none of these are intended to be real money in real circulation and run by a private company. Collector editions of coins is not illegal (The Ron Paul coins), but this is not money. See this search page for images of the Liberty Dollar -- and by the way, I don't think either "liberty" nor "dollar" nor "liberty dollar" is a registered trademark of the US Government. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowEpistemologist Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 http://store.apple.com/uk/browse/home/shop_mac/family/macbook_pro/select In the above link, you can pay British Pounds for an Apple laptop. In this context, another country's currency is the same thing as your own currency (which isn't trying to be a Dollar clone) or your own form of payment. The US does not compel it's citizens to use US dollars for transactions. *** I'm reminded of the following quote: "Denouncing masculine oppression, Women's Lib screams protests against the policy of regarding women as "sex objects"—through speakers who, too obviously, are in no such danger." People use US Dollars because it is convenient and safe, not because they are forced to. Now, I understand that the fact above destroys a gigantic narrative structure on which entire latter-day Libertarian conspiracy theories (and their resultant political campaigns) of have been built, but that was sorta the point. Like Ron Paul and his entire multi-million dollar political campaign, speakers here are in no danger of being repressed by a tyrannical US dollar which they cannot escape. In a world filled with very serious issues of repression, it's a non-issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 People use US Dollars because it is convenient and safe, not because they are forced to.... and mostly because everyone else does so. This does not take the ideology of fiat currency off the hook. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 http://store.apple.c...book_pro/select In the above link, you can pay British Pounds for an Apple laptop. One more time: that's not the same as refusing to accept or in any way use dollars. That would be impossible to do while operating in the US, because of the piece of legislation I already provided you with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 ... and mostly because everyone else does so. This does not take the ideology of fiat currency off the hook. Are you agreeing with him that there is no legal compulsion for every business to use dollars at some point in their business cycle? If so, how would they pay taxes? What about this statement, by an American lawyer, explaining the Treasury quote CE is harping on: Businesses Must Accept “Dollars,” but Not Cash This means that US notes and coins are a valid and legal offer of payment for debts when tendered to a creditor. However, although businesses must accept dollars, that doesn’t mean they literally have to take your big wad of bill,s which is bulky, difficult to make change for, and, frankly, a breeding ground for germs. A vendor can usually put reasonable conditions on the manner in which they will accept dollars, and one of those conditions can be that they’ll only accept dollars electronically, via credit card. Or, as the US Treasury explains on their website, “Private businesses are free to develop their own policies on whether or not to accept cash unless there is a State law which says otherwise.” http://legallad.quickanddirtytips.com/legal-tender.aspx This isn't an isolated lawyer's opinion. I would be hard pressed to find one advising the opposite. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted June 23, 2012 Report Share Posted June 23, 2012 Are you agreeing with him that there is no legal compulsion for every business to use dollars at some point in their business cycle?For U.S. taxes everything has to be expressed in dollars. I doubt Crow would claim otherwise, since this is common knowledge. From the viewpoint of an IRS auditor, such transactions are always suspicious because they know that when an original transaction was not in dollars, and people are asked to express it id dollars for taxes, they have cause to under-value incomesand over-state expenses. (e.g. the IRS has stopped allowing people to deduct the "blue-book" value of donated cars, but must use the value as certified by the charity -- e.g. when it is sold.) Other than taxes, if there's some type of dispute and things go to court, the settlement will almost certainly be in dollars. My side of a barter may be fix someone's car. If I do not fulfill it, and a court finds me in breach they will almost certainly not make me fix the car, but will make me pay some number of dollars instead. Other than that, there's no compulsion to use dollars if both parties agree to barter. There are some business networks where small-businesses barter services. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowEpistemologist Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Also, most large businesses One more time: that's not the same as refusing to accept or in any way use dollars. That would be impossible to do while operating in the US, because of the piece of legislation I already provided you with. Two different things. You can refuse to accept US Dollars. There is no law stopping you. You need to pay your taxes in US Dollars. Yes. In practicality you will need to use them often here in the US, just as running a business of any bigger than a lemonade stand without a Visa card is for intents and purpose impossible here in the US (and it would be a pointless exercise besides). That's different than saying there are laws requiring you to have a Visa card, however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JASKN Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 That's different than saying there are laws requiring you to have a Visa card, however. Of course, Visa doesn't have the ability to compel you to do something with government backing. (Or do they? I don't follow their Washington activities.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 You need to pay your taxes in US Dollars. Yes. In practicality you will need to use them often here in the US, just as running a business of any bigger than a lemonade stand without a Visa card is for intents and purpose impossible here in the US (and it would be a pointless exercise besides). That's different than saying there are laws requiring you to have a Visa card, however. Different? Both statement are equally untrue. There aren't any laws requiring use and acceptance of Visa cards, and as a result plenty of businesses don't accept them. The notion that every single US business would accept Visa's terms and deal with them is quite absurd. And so is the notion that they would all freely accept the terms of the US government to use dollars. So, now that the record is set straight, how do you explain that Visa (which you described as a brilliant service that people would be stupid to refuse) is refused all the time, and the dollar (which is a poor service that is causing its users to lose value every second of every day) is used by everyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) ... how do you explain that Visa ... is refused all the time,...Visa charges merchants a percentage off the payment. Someone accepting $100 via VISA gets only $98 or so (less if the customer is paying with a high-rewards card). This is the most important reason merchants do not accept it, or accept it only at a discount, or only for payments above a certain number. The other reasons are all similar. None of them is about force, since the VISA payment is no different from a dollar payment to the merchant once you remove these inconveniences. To the merchant, the VISA payment appears in his bank account as dollars. ...the dollar (which is a poor service that is causing its users to lose value every second of every day) is used by everyone?Since VISA payments are always denominated in currency (like dollars) converts to dollars, it loses value in exactly the same way as dollars. Things become money because they have certain features (fungibility, durability, high value-per-volume, etc.). "Money is a matter of functions four, a medium, a measure, a standard, a store." When the government removes the last component -- e.g. by adulterating gold coins -- it can create more money and (in the right circumstances) can make money less of a "store of value". This also undermines its function as a measure and even as a standard. However, it is very hard to undermine its nature as a medium of exchange once a money is well established. People will make mental adjustments (e.g. assuming that prices will rise by x% a year) to compensate in the realms of "store", "measure" and "function". If expansion becomes extreme -- or if money becomes extremely scarce -- it can break down in a system of barter, and new money can evolve: e.g. chocolates or cigarettes. Otherwise, the function as a "medium of exchange" remains. What this means is that people value money because other people value money. The original evolution of that particular money becomes less of a factor over time. Edited June 24, 2012 by softwareNerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thomas M. Miovas Jr. Posted June 24, 2012 Author Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 While it is true that the whole issue of currency and cash came about due to barter and having a convenient means of keeping track of barter exchanges and storing those trades in something more convenient than, say, carrying your cow around with you to dish out milk to trade, this doesn't mean that barter is the proper alternative to not having an objective currency system like we have today with the Federal Reserve Notes. A proper money must be standardized and possibly open to further divisions of the same stuff in order to accommodate sales in that currency -- i.e. if trades made in ounces of gold (coins) always leads to not getting an exact deal, then the coins can be melted down to make smaller denominations. This is not something that can be done with fiat / paper currency not backed by anything. A good example is the Krugerrand of South Africa, which has been made into smaller denominations and could be used as a great currency because it is actual gold and hence can store actual value due to the demand for gold. There are many barter associations and even gambling houses that offer their own type of tokens / barter cash to help keep track of the sales that meet *some* of the provisions of having an actual currency, but the problem is that these barter cash systems require you to do business with the barter trade association only, since their barter cash is not good anywhere else. For example, those plastic tokens one has to buy in Las Vegas to do gambling at the casinos are not tradable anywhere else without having to go back through those gambling houses to trade them back in for cash. This places a severe limit on their use as currency, which is why we don't see gambling chips being traded at the local grocery store. By contrast, something like the Krugerrand, which is real gold and real value in and of itself, could be traded anywhere and could be the basis of a nation wide currency, but it isn't legal *. One reason the Liberty Dollar was shut down was that they were trying to initialize a nation wide if not world wide currency based upon silver coins. The US Government does not want a competing currency to the Federal Reserve Note, because if people discovered the difference between real money and the fake crap the Feds put out, they'd be out of business in a heart beat. This was the real motivation behind arresting those involved in the Liberty Dollar "scandal." And NO I don't mean that it is illegal to own Krugerrands, but it would be illegal to set up a store whereby the only type of currency one would accept would be the Krugerrand and smaller denominations of gold coins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowEpistemologist Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Different? Both statement are equally untrue. There aren't any laws requiring use and acceptance of Visa cards, and as a result plenty of businesses don't accept them. The notion that every single US business would accept Visa's terms and deal with them is quite absurd. And so is the notion that they would all freely accept the terms of the US government to use dollars. So, now that the record is set straight, how do you explain that Visa (which you described as a brilliant service that people would be stupid to refuse) is refused all the time, and the dollar (which is a poor service that is causing its users to lose value every second of every day) is used by everyone? I said it would be practically very difficult to run a larger business without having a Visa. Please read what I wrote. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrowEpistemologist Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 And NO I don't mean that it is illegal to own Krugerrands, but it would be illegal to set up a store whereby the only type of currency one would accept would be the Krugerrand and smaller denominations of gold coins. Again, cite the specific legal statutes that say this. There aren't any. You can buy an unlimited amount of goods in Canada, from your home in the US, from a store that does not take US dollars, for yet another example. Oh, and here's an example of a store that only takes gold as payment: http://cashforgold.com/ . *** One reason the Liberty Dollar was shut down was that they were trying to initialize a nation wide if not world wide currency based upon silver coins. The US Government does not want a competing currency to the Federal Reserve Note, because if people discovered the difference between real money and the fake crap the Feds put out, they'd be out of business in a heart beat. This was the real motivation behind arresting those involved in the Liberty Dollar "scandal." They had to do this since they are, of course, secretly controlled by The Jews: http://www.rense.com/general85/feddrec.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dream_weaver Posted June 24, 2012 Report Share Posted June 24, 2012 Oh, and here's an example of a store that only takes gold as payment: http://cashforgold.com/ . It appears that they take silver and platinum as well. On a broader point, they are paying you FRN's for the stuff. Unless they have a printing press in the back, I would warrant that they use it to raise FRN's to further their enterprise. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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