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Where does Free Will begin?

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Oscar Munoz

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Can someone point me to scientific literature (or an article by a science journalist) that talks about the beginning processes at the root of the Somatic Nervous System?

Specifically, I am interested in finding out more on the scientific insights or discoveries on what in the brain triggers the electrical signals that go out thru the nervious system and then ultimately to the muscles? I am only interested in the VOLUNTARY nervous system: in otherwords, where the initial brain "switch" that begins the whole process is or can be activated by a self-conscious CHOICE.

I am not insterested in any literature that discusses this from a philosophical perspective as such. I am interested in scientific theories and empirical research on this issue from a PHYSICAL MECHANISM point of view.

thanks.

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Hi, Oscar. I'm going to suggest to you that you read this, as it might clear up some confusion you seem to be having . Basically, free will isn't going to be located in some group of neurons or connections. The life or death of free will does not hinge on scientific research.

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/11/13/is-neuroscience-the-death-of-free-will/

The author of that article, Eddie Nahmias, does a lot of experimental research on free will that you might be interested in.

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http://opinionator.b...<br /><br /> The author of that article, Eddie Nahmias, does a lot of experimental research on free will that you might be interested in.

The sciences of the mind do give us good reasons to think that our minds are made of matter. But to conclude that consciousness or free will is thereby an illusion is too quick. It is like inferring from discoveries in organic chemistry that life is an illusion just because living organisms are made up of non-living stuff. Much of the progress in science comes precisely from understanding wholes in terms of their parts, without this suggesting the disappearance of the wholes. There’s no reason to define the mind or free will in a way that begins by cutting off this possibility for progress.

What the hell, this guy argues like I do. Plagiarism! :smartass:

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Here is a Daniel Dennet video where he takes an hour to belabor the point that any theory of consciousness that has a little witness or decider inside of it fails, because the theory of consciousness is supposed to explain that witness or decider. To put it another way, there can be no subject inside the subject because that leads to infinite regress. This relates to the question posed by Oscar Munoz by implying there is no magic neuron cluster that corresponds to free will because then that magic neuron cluster would need to be explained.

edit:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=48ol4sHasA8

Edited by Grames
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Can someone point me to scientific literature (or an article by a science journalist) that talks about the beginning processes at the root of the Somatic Nervous System?

Specifically, I am interested in finding out more on the scientific insights or discoveries on what in the brain triggers the electrical signals that go out thru the nervious system and then ultimately to the muscles? I am only interested in the VOLUNTARY nervous system: in otherwords, where the initial brain "switch" that begins the whole process is or can be activated by a self-conscious CHOICE.

I am not insterested in any literature that discusses this from a philosophical perspective as such. I am interested in scientific theories and empirical research on this issue from a PHYSICAL MECHANISM point of view.

thanks.

Ah, a reductive materialist.

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Can someone point me to scientific literature (or an article by a science journalist) that talks about the beginning processes at the root of the Somatic Nervous System?

Specifically, I am interested in finding out more on the scientific insights or discoveries on what in the brain triggers the electrical signals that go out thru the nervious system and then ultimately to the muscles? I am only interested in the VOLUNTARY nervous system: in otherwords, where the initial brain "switch" that begins the whole process is or can be activated by a self-conscious CHOICE.

You're not describing free will though. Animals also have a somatic nervous system, and yet they don't have free will.

Studying the SoNS isn't going to tell you much about free will. Free will is the ability of a consciousness to focus or not focus on a specific thought, not the ability to move one's muscles. Movement doesn't require free will.

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Here is a Daniel Dennet video where he takes an hour to belabor the point that any theory of consciousness that has a little witness or decider inside of it fails, because the theory of consciousness is supposed to explain that witness or decider.

So, the consciousness is the "decider" then, correct? The human brain is a mechanism that (in a specific, not fully known yet but obviously knowable way) sustains a consciousness with the ability to choose.

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Here is a Daniel Dennet video where he takes an hour to belabor the point that any theory of consciousness that has a little witness or decider inside of it fails, because the theory of consciousness is supposed to explain that witness or decider.

I'm always reminded of the Cartesian theory of mind when a movie/show depicts a robot's first-person perspective having a heads-up display (HUD) - now why would a truly conscious robot need an internal display of the information that it directly measures with its sensory devices?

[media=]

The same reason a robot doesn't need a heads-up display is the reason a human does not need a homunculus to watch such a display.

Edited by brian0918
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The life or death of free will does NOT hinge on scientific research, that is correct. My inquiry into looking for scientific literature on the subject WAS MY CHOICE; the people rsearching the issue CHOSE TO DO SO; and when we discover more, we can CHOOSE to do what we want with the information. Free Will is necessarily true and implied by everything I said. The philosophical issue IS CLOSED, I know! Hopefully, someone some day will post a link to the scientific literature where I can read up on the issue I brought up: "HOW" (not if) the voitional process of consciousness works. (OF COURSE, I am not looking for some final answer, but INSIGHTS.) Thinking that the answer (or the existence of the answer) will invalidate the initial premise is not justified. "Free will" does not have to remain a mystical, unkown, magical process in order to exist. For instance, I know that existence exists, but that does not mean we can't try to find out what exists.

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Yes, there is no magic neuron cluster that corresponds to free will because then that magic neuron cluster would need to be explained. I agree. Seeing such an implication in my question is an ERROR. However, free will is a process IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD, and that is a very simple open statement that does not imply much at all, except that we can obtain insights into how volition works thru science. Wanting to see how volition (or better yet: more generally, how the mind) works implies that volition exists. Me asking the question was a CHOICE. Others answering the question is a CHOICE, etc. etc.

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The Dennet video I think gives a good idea of how to approach a study of consciousness (or more broadly, cognitive science). Of all fields I know of, philosophical ideas especially comes into play with cognitive science because of the nature of it being heavily involved with methods of thought. Can you please be specific about what parts of the volitional process of consciousness you would like to understand? There is language learning, studies about expertise, how volition breaks down in some ways due to brain disorders, how information travels in the brain... I could go on for a while.

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The only "reductivism" I implied is tracing back the nervous system response to its source. For instance, when I CHOOSE to move my pinkie (for instance), the CHOICE does not lie in the pinkie. An electrical signal was sent to certain muscles to contract them, so that my pinkie moved. I then ask: why and where did this signal occurr? I can trace it back to a certain part of the brain, which initiated some electrochemical "switch" (to call it something; call it a gidgetwonker, if you want) that commanded the signal to be sent. This "switch' is "US." This switch is our minds, This switch is "YOU" saying "internally" somehow: Hey, I want my pinkie to move. It is volition, it is our minds, it is the CHOICE. However, all that is nice, but not enough for me. I want more, and of course, all the MORE that we learn will not contradict the settled philisophical issue of the fudamental laws of Objectivism. Do you get it? I hope so!

So I am going to find out how the GIDGETWONKER works, and I am not afraid. I am not afraid that science will ruin the mystery of volition. Thinking that way is part of religious mysticism, not Objectivism.

Edited by Oscar Munoz
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I'm not sure if that post was directed at me, or ppw.

I'm still not sure what information you want. Have you looked under this same subforum at the the thread "In what ways does cognitive science reflect Objectivist episetmology"? There is at least one useful link in there. I'll post in there soon enough, if I'd only stop procrastinating.

Edited by Eiuol
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