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mdegges
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How would military crimes be dealt with in a LFC society?

In particular, rape?

After watching this documentary about rape in the military, I tried to fact check the statistics: "...a female soldier in combat zones is more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire, over 20% of female veterans have been sexually assaulted while serving in the US army, of 3,192 sexual-assault reports in 2011 only 191 members of the military were convicted at courts martial." [1] I also wanted to see if these allegations were real (you never know). I found one formal complaint online which I partially read, and it confirms some of the allegations raised in the movie.

The rape-victims in the movie were advocating trial by civilian jury, which they believe would be a better way to get justice.

Edited by mdegges
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The rape-victims in the movie were advocating trial by civilian jury, which they believe would be a better way to get justice.

It wouldn't, for the same reason trying enemy combatants in civilian court wouldn't: all the evidence is out of the reach of civilian authorities. The only people equipped to investigate and prosecute crimes that happen in combat zones or on military bases in foreign countries civilian authorities can't possibly have access to are the military cops and lawyers.

They should be advocating for improving military justice, not trying to replace it with civilian justice.

of 3,192 sexual-assault reports in 2011 only 191 members of the military were convicted at courts martial

In the civilian world, approximately 10% of reports of rape end in an assailant serving jail-time. Unfortunately, I couldn't find a similar figure on other crimes, to see if that's in line with other crimes or not. But I bet it is, in fact it's probably better.

On the other hand, I did find the UK conviction rates for both rape and crime in general, and it's almost the same: 58% and 57% respectively (a conviction rate is the rate of convictions once a case goes to trial, rather than just reported).

I would say that, given the conditions in the military (where investigating a crime is often more difficult, on account that it's a foreign country/ war zone), those numbers make sense. I seriously doubt civilian authorities would do a better job all the way from home.

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a female soldier in combat zones is more likely to be raped by a fellow soldier than killed by enemy fire

Yeah, when I see observations like that in a movie or book, I immediately become suspicious of a bias/agenda being pursued.

There is no reason why a rational observer would compare those two stats, except to try to mislead those who are ignorant of this next fact: because the US military still limits the role of women in action, there have only been 144 women killed in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan (that includes soldiers and civilians working with the military).

Edited by Nicky
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over 20% of female veterans have been sexually assaulted while serving in the US army

I am assuming this is the result of a poll conducted among female veterans. If so, it is consistent with polls conducted among other groups of American women in similar age groups.

For instance, to a poll of American college women, 15% have answered yes to a question asking if they ever experienced what they consider rape, and another 10% answered yes on attempted rape. http://mres.gmu.edu/pmwiki/uploads/Main/C3T4.pdf That's 25%, for only two categories of sexual assault. There are several others.

In other words, these figures, while obviously horrible, reflect on American culture as a whole (and I'm sure, the state of human society all over the world, not just the US), not just military culture. Nor do they show that the military isn't pursuing rapists just as vigorously as civilian authorities.

Edited by Nicky
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I can't speak about the Army, but from my point of view, rape and sexual assault are taken very seriously, and instances can result in the removal of general officers from command. Why are there so many, I believe it's a result of the fact that you have a lot of people living and working in close quarters, and drinking is the cultural norm. Most sexual assaults are alcohol related. We receive constant briefings on these matters and there are vast programs aimed at addressing it (such as the SARC.)

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Only 240 cases of sexual assault in the military were prosecuted in 2011, out of more than 3,000 reported cases. The Department of Defense estimates that the number of actual sexual assaults in the military each year is closer to 19,000, although many service members never come forward out of fear of retaliation.

...

While the military has been accused of ignoring rape cases for years, the recent sexual assault scandal at the Lackland Airforce Base in Texas has focused national attention on the problem. Six basic training instructors at Lackland were charged with sexual misconduct involving at least 43 women, but the punishments for some of the perpetrators so far have been mild. After one of the instructors, Jason Manko, confessed to having had a sexual relationship with a trainee, he was sentenced to only 45 days in jail and was allowed to remain in the military. Huffington Post

In 2011:

The percentage of prosecuted sexual assault cases, out of the total reported cases, was (240/3,000) 8%.

The percentage of prosecuted sexual assault cases, out of the estimated number of actual sexual assaults, was only (240/19,000) 1%.

That's oddly low, don't you think?

In other words, these figures, while obviously horrible, reflect on American culture as a whole (and I'm sure, the state of human society all over the world, not just the US), not just military culture. Nor do they show that the military isn't pursuing rapists just as vigorously as civilian authorities.

...

I would say that, given the conditions in the military (where investigating a crime is often more difficult, on account that it's a foreign country/ war zone), those numbers make sense. I seriously doubt civilian authorities would do a better job all the way from home.

So your position is: the percentage of rape in America (and all across the world) is horribly high, so it's not suprising that the percentage of rape in the US military is also horribly high. There's really nothing we can do about it, it's jus the way things are- the system is obviously broken, but it can't be fixed. Is that right?

The document alleges that several senior officers made verbal sexual advances toward her, and the sexual assault culminated when her civilian boss and her commanding officer allegedly entered her residence.

...

Despite reporting to a senior officer that she had been raped, the lawsuit alleges that little was done immediately after to investigate. NCIS conducted a short investigation with inconclusive results, and the Marine Corps ‘lost’ her rape kit. Daily

From what I've read, it doesn't seem like rape in the military is taken seriously at all.

Edited by mdegges
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You are aware that what these polls "consider" rape and the legal definition of sexual assault don't match up. Oh, and "sexual misconduct" is NOT RAPE. This could mean something as simple as walking naked through the barracks. Heck, it doesn't even say that the guy had a NON-CONSENSUAL relationship with a trainee. It may even have been her idea, but when you're the trainer you are responsible for the consequences under military law.

And "what you read" was ONE formal complaint. Surely that's statistically significant and utterly definitive regarding how seriously the entire military takes the matter.

Let's exercise some critical thinking skills before we fly off the handle, here. I grew up on an Army post, and the soldiers were all, every last one of them, unfailingly polite and respectful. So based on my obviously statistically significant experience, it must all be hogwash.

Honestly. I empathize with the commanders out there who have to deal with this shite and wind up wanting all women out of the military. I really do. Granted, this policy would probably not simplify matters any. All-male units harass each other just as much as they harass women. And most of them are quite young and incredibly stupid.

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So your position is: the percentage of rape in America (and all across the world) is horribly high, so it's not suprising that the percentage of rape in the US military is also horribly high. There's really nothing we can do about it, it's jus the way things are- the system is obviously broken, but it can't be fixed. Is that right?

I didn't say the police and legal system is broken. The police and legal system is working fine, prosecuting and convicting rapists at the same rate as they do any other crime. I also didn't say that they can't be improved (but the improvement would be in evidence gathering techniques in crime in general, it has nothing to do with rape in particular) . What I said was that replacing military authorities with civilian ones wouldn't be an improvement.

The horrible thing is that so many people commit rape. It's also horrible that so many people commit murder, violent assaults, etc. And that can be fixed too, just not with law enforcement (the fix is a combination of better culture and prevention - yes, that would be prevention on the part of would-be victims). There are nations in this world where violent crimes are much more rare, and it's not because they have better cops.

I think there is an unreasonable expectation, among the uninformed, on what it takes for a report of a crime (often false report, or delayed by weeks or months) to turn into a conviction. Investigators can't perform miracles, they have to have sufficient evidence. And I think the people who made your movie are exploiting that ignorance to present misleading stats and, once again, single out the US military as the target of their propaganda.

Edited by Nicky
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You are aware that what these polls "consider" rape and the legal definition of sexual assault don't match up. Oh, and "sexual misconduct" is NOT RAPE. This could mean something as simple as walking naked through the barracks. Heck, it doesn't even say that the guy had a NON-CONSENSUAL relationship with a trainee. It may even have been her idea, but when you're the trainer you are responsible for the consequences under military law.

That is not true at all. Sexual assault cannot mean walking naked through the barracks, and it cannot mean that the sex was consensual. From SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE MILITARY: CONTEXT FACTORS AND MEASUREMENT ISSUES:

Under the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ), the Department of Defense (DoD; 2004) defines sexual assault in the following manner:

"Sexual assault is a crime. Sexual assault is defined as intentional sexual contact, characterized by use of force, physical threat or abuse of authority or when the victim does not or cannot consent. Sexual assault includes: rape, nonconsensual sodomy (oral or anal sex), indecent assault (unwanted, inappropriate sexual contact or fondling), or attempts to commit these acts. Sexual assault can occur without regard to gender or spousal relationship or age of victim.

“Consent” shall not be deemed or construed to mean the failure by the victim to offer physical resistance. Consent is not given when a person uses force, threat of force, coercion or when the victim is asleep, incapacitated, or unconscious.

Other sex-related offenses are defined as all other sexual acts or acts in violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice that do not meet the above definition of sexual assault, or the definition of sexual harassment as promulgated in DoD Directive 1350.2."

And "what you read" was ONE formal complaint. Surely that's statistically significant and utterly definitive regarding how seriously the entire military takes the matter.

The context I'm working in is from the reports I've read, anecdotal evidence (horror stories), and statistical facts. I haven't read one positive, anecdotal statement (or seen one statistical fact) that counters the claims made above. Do you have any counter evidence to support your position?

Honestly. I empathize with the commanders out there who have to deal with this shite and wind up wanting all women out of the military. I really do.

...with what shit? Dealing with sexual assault victims and their attackers, or dealing with statements like this?

This latest report clearly shows that the military’s response to rape and sexual assault within its own ranks has been both inadequate and ineffective,” said Anu Bhagwati, former Marine Corps captain and executive director of the Service Women’s Action Network. “This crime continues to see massive amounts of underreporting because victims do not feel the climate is safe to report, and perpetrators are not being brought to trial in sufficient numbers. -Report on Military Sexual Assault

Boo-hoo, poor commanders. They really have a tough time. Honestly though, I would like to know what would be different in a LFC society. You act as if there is no problem, that rape is just an occupational hazard. Why do you feel that way? I mean I imagine it must be hard to empathize with rape victims if you've never been raped yourself, but I don't understand how you can look at these stories and statistics and say 'I empathize with commanders who feel that all women should be kicked out of the military.' You realize men are assaulted and raped, too- but do you not think that matters?

I didn't say the police and legal system is broken. The police and legal system is working fine

Is it?

I would like to know what would happen to actual rapists in a LFC society: will they be kicked out of the military, or just go to jail for a few weeks and be let back in (as they are now, if they are even prosecuted at all (which rarely happens) and if they are actually convicted (which is even rarer))? Who do you report to if your commander or a higher up is the rapist? Will this be taken seriously at all? Will you, the victim, be kicked out of the military, ostracized, etc?

Edited by mdegges
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Yeah, when I see observations like that in a movie or book, I immediately become suspicious of a bias/agenda being pursued.

There is no reason why a rational observer would compare those two stats, except to try to mislead those who are ignorant of this next fact: because the US military still limits the role of women in action, there have only been 144 women killed in combat in Iraq and Afghanistan (that includes soldiers and civilians working with the military).

Sorry I haven't been keeping up with your posts too well, but thanks for pointing that out. I didn't recognize it myself when I read the article, but I agree.

Edited by mdegges
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I would like to know what would happen to actual rapists in a LFC society: will they be kicked out of the military, or just go to jail for a few weeks and be let back in (as they are now [...] Who do you report to if your commander or a higher up is the rapist? Will this be taken seriously at all? Will you, the victim, be kicked out of the military, ostracized, etc?

There is an office called the Sexual Assault Response Coordinator. This office is not in your chain of command. There is also the police, OSI, and the inspector general, who are not in your chain of command.

Also: the punishments for sexual assault are listed as follows:

Aggravated Sexual Assault: Dishonorable Discharge, confinement for 30 yrs, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

Aggravated Sexual Contact:Dishonorable Discharge, confinement for 20 yrs, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

Abusive Sexual Contact: Dishonorable Discharge, confinement for 7 yrs, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

Indecent Act: Dishonorable Discharge, confinement for 5 yrs, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

Wrongful Sexual Contact:Dishonorable Discharge, confinement for 1 yr, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

Indecent Exposure: Dishonorable Discharge, confinement for 1 yr, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

and of course

Rape: Dishonorable Discharge, death or confinement for Life, and forfeiture of all pay and allowances.

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I would like to know what would happen to actual rapists in a LFC society: will they be kicked out of the military, or just go to jail for a few weeks and be let back in (as they are now, if they are even prosecuted at all (which rarely happens) and if they are actually convicted (which is even rarer))?

You just went from "I'm not sure whether this movie is true or not" to outrageous claims that I doubt even the propagandists in the movie have made.

Tell you what: even though you are claiming knowledge of tens of thousands of rapists walking around freely, I'm not gonna ask you to list them all and prove their guilt one by one. Instead, I'm gonna ask you to just name one rapist who has never been prosecuted, and present proof of his guilt beyond reasonable doubt.

Again: your claims imply that you could do that for tens of thousands of men who are supposedly known rapists, but no one seems to mind. I'm just asking you to do it for one.

Edited by Nicky
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That is not true at all. Sexual assault cannot mean walking naked through the barracks, and it cannot mean that the sex was consensual. From SEXUAL ASSAULT IN THE MILITARY: CONTEXT FACTORS AND MEASUREMENT ISSUES:

The article you quoted didn't say "sexual assault". It said, specifically, "sexual misconduct" which is an entirely different kettle of fish. The men you were talking about who weren't booted out of the military were not charged with aggravated assault. They weren't charged with assault. They were charged with misconduct. Indecent exposure does indeed fall under misconduct.

This is why I empathize with the commanding officers who, from my personal experience, actually do a pretty good job. They deal constantly with people like you who don't know what the terminology means, don't know the relevant statistics or grasp their relation to other similar statistics, and blow anything even distantly relating to sex so completely out of proportion that the victims of actual crimes wind up getting disregarded in the flood of inane hysterics.

The only thing sexual assault statistics serve to demonstrate nowadays is that people are bloody stupid, men and women both. If you're the kind of person who worries about this sort of thing, the first line of defense is to take pains not to be bloody stupid. Among people of both sexes who do this, the rate of any kind of assault is incredibly low.

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The article you quoted didn't say "sexual assault". It said, specifically, "sexual misconduct" which is an entirely different kettle of fish. The men you were talking about who weren't booted out of the military were not charged with aggravated assault. They weren't charged with assault. They were charged with misconduct. Indecent exposure does indeed fall under misconduct.

Ok, I see the confusion. Only one article I used mentioned sexual misconduct, and that was in regards to one specific case (at the Lackland Airforce Base). "Six basic training instructors at Lackland were charged with sexual misconduct involving at least 43 women, but the punishments for some of the perpetrators so far have been mild." Obviously the statistics I mentioned earlier (the percentage of prosecuted sexual assault cases) refer to more serious crimes, with rape being one of them.

Here you are, Nicky:

“The last thing a commander wants, other than a death in his unit, is sexual harassment, or an assault case, because that makes his unit’s command look bad, Robert said.

...

In fact, CBS News has learned that both the Army and Marine Corps did issue a number of "moral waivers" to enlistees with felony convictions for rape and sexual assault - something not acknowledged in a follow-up letter from Dominguez.

...

“We have documents showing that a private convicted of rape, who had a bad conduct discharge suspended so he could deploy to Iraq,” Couric told Dominguez. “How could the U.S. military allow a convicted criminal to go back into a situation where he could easily rape again?”

“I’m not familiar with this particular case,” Dominguez replied. [Source]

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Here you are, Nicky.

Here I go, where? That's a news story about an unnamed soldier who, according to Katie Couric at least, exists and was convicted of rape. I asked you for the name of a soldier who raped someone but wasn't charged or convicted, and proof of his guilt, because you claimed to know about tens of thousands of soldiers who raped someone but were never charged or convicted.

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From a military.com article:

Prosecutors lack witnesses or strong evidence in the majority of cases, making it hard to yield a conviction, said Michael Waddington, a military defense lawyer and former judge advocate in the Army. He sees too many cases that involve alcohol and depend on hearsay.

...

“There’s almost a presumption that the girl is a liar,” Waddington said. “The juries want to see some physical evidence. The guys in three of my past four [sexual assault] cases have been found not guilty.”

...

Lawyers pointed out they don’t want to dissuade women from reporting sexual assaults, but they said the lawyers and commanders involved must be careful they don’t overload courtrooms with cases that have no hope of earning convictions.

...

Greg Jacob, policy director for the Service Women’s Action Network, worries military leadership is not doing enough to discharge those troops who are convicted of sexual assault. A report by the Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office of the Department of Defense found that 64 percent of convicted sexual assault perpetrators were discharged from the military. “That means we are retaining one in three sex offenders,” he said.

...

The military trails the civilian court system with regard to jail time for sex offenders. Currently, convicted sex offenders in the military receive about two years in jail per victim. The average ratio in civilian courts is 10 years per victim.

Again, 'sex offender' is a broad term, but 'sexual assault' is narrowly defined.

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Here I go, where? That's a news story about an unnamed soldier who, according to Katie Couric at least, exists and was convicted of rape. I asked you for the name of a soldier who raped someone but wasn't charged or convicted, and proof of his guilt, because you claimed to know about tens of thousands of soldiers who raped someone but were never charged or convicted.

Yes, she was talking about a man who was convicted (ie: found guilty) of rape, but is still in the military. No, I don't have those documents or his name. And no, there is no way I can 'prove his guilt.' It's extremely hard to prove that someone raped you in the first place. You have to go to the medical unit, get a rape kit done, take pictures if you were battered, etc. If you were raped (without being battered) and get a shower afterwards or wait a week before reporting it, there is no way to prove that X raped you.. it turns into "he said, (s)he said." There's also cases like this: "Myla Haider, working as a criminal investigator prosecuting rape cases for the US Army... On one occasion, her unit's commander – skeptical of a reported rape victim's story – told her to advise the victim of the penalties for making a false statement and interrogate her "until I got the truth out of her." On another occasion, a defendant who had failed a lie detector test was acquitted due to botched investigation...data show that while 40 percent of civilian sexual-assault allegations are prosecuted, "this number is a staggeringly low 8 percent in the military""

I never claimed to know 'tens of thousands of soldiers who raped someone but were never charged or convicted.' I said that there are some rapists who are never charged or convicted, and it is not hard to see why. But even out of those who are convicted, many of them (36%) are still serving in the military.

Edited by mdegges
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I never claimed to know 'tens of thousands of soldiers who raped someone but were never charged or convicted.' I said that there are some rapists who are never charged or convicted, and it is not hard to see why. But even out of those who are convicted, many of them (36%) are still serving in the military.

Actually, what you claimed is that most actual rapists in the military are rarely prosecuted and even more rarely charged. Here it is:

I would like to know what would happen to actual rapists in a LFC society: will they be kicked out of the military, or just go to jail for a few weeks and be let back in (as they are now, if they are even prosecuted at all (which rarely happens) and if they are actually convicted (which is even rarer))?

That's why I asked you to name one supposed rapist who was never charged, and prove that he is an actual rapist. Just one, to back up your claim of tens of thousands.

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data show that while 40 percent of civilian sexual-assault allegations are prosecuted, "this number is a staggeringly low 8 percent in the military""

I'm not buying those numbers (the supposed 40%). They don't seem right. Between the crime never being reported, perps getting booked on other crimes, prosecutors not bothering to go after some minor offender, there's no way 40% of all alleged sexual assaults are prosecuted in the US.

But you keep switching terms, now it's rape next it's sexual assault, now it's reporting it next it's "allegations", so it's very hard to call you out definitively on these numbers. I'm not sure what you mean by "allegations", and sexual assault stats are not as available as rape stats, but, like I said, only 10% of reported rapes ever end in convictions, and only 5 percent of "alleged" rapes (if we expand "alleged" to mean more than just formal complaints to the Police).

And your OP is about rape, so let's stick with that, leave some asshole walking around with his dick out or slapping people's asses left and right (mostly his male friends', btw.), for another day. I have actual sources for the rape numbers:

reporting-matrix-2012-1.jpg

That's from here:

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/statistics/reporting-rates

And here's a different source, for backup: http://www.oneinfourusa.org/statistics.php . Some of the numbers are a bit different (it's a different time period), but the big one is exactly the same: 5% conviction rate on all alleged rapes (reported or otherwise alleged).

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But you keep switching terms, now it's rape next it's sexual assault, now it's reporting it next it's "allegations", so it's very hard to call you out definitively on these numbers. I'm not sure what you mean by "allegations", and sexual assault stats are not as available as rape stats, but, like I said, only 10% of reported rapes ever end in convictions, and only 5 percent of "alleged" rapes (if we expand "alleged" to mean more than just formal complaints to the Police)... And your OP is about rape, so let's stick with that

The OP is about military crimes in general, but when I created the thread I was specifically interested in rape because that's what the documentary was about. The stats I've found have ranged from 'allegations', 'sex abuse', and 'sexual assaults.' Every article uses different terms and different stats, so it's been hard to find reliable information.

One stat I found shows that 5% of reported sexual abuse cases end in conviction. (Not sure if sexual abuse here is the same as sexual assault.)

An interesting story is below. (What happens to those who are actually convicted? In this case, the allegation is rape. The conviction doesn't even match up with the punishment 2046 mentioned for 'indecent exposure,' let alone rape.)

US Marine Lt. Ariana Klay puts face to this abysmal statistic. According to Klay, she was gang raped by fellow service members. One of her perpetrators was among the 191 in the 2011 report "convicted" last year. He spent 45 days in the brig for adultery and indecent language, was paid $7,000 a month while incarcerated and no mark was left on his permanent record. The second perpetrator was granted complete immunity to testify against the defendant, Klay.

The author goes on to say, "This year's SAPRO report revealed that of the 2,410 reports of sexual assault, 191 -- 8% -- resulted in a court-martial conviction. This sobering fact goes a long way toward explaining why so few victims decide to report."

Edited by mdegges
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I have been in the military for over 11 years, and I have yet to see a reliable statistic showing rape in the military is any more prevalent than it is in U.S. society as a whole. Of course rape is a problem, but it's not a specific military problem, especially when you consider that the armed forces are greatly comprised of 17-25 year old single males (classic criminal demographic).

The military is burdened with hours upon hours of mandatory sexual assault prevention and response training every year - far more than the 15 minutes you might get at college orientation, even though colleges are no less a hotbed for sexual assault. Commanders have to walk on glass any time a sexual assault is reported for fear that they might be fired if the slightest mistake is made in the investigation.

There are known cases of false accusations, especially at the military academies, but I can tell you from experience as an officer with knowledge of a few investigations that the alleged victims are not mistreated or distrusted. On the other hand, the alleged aggressors are shunned, placed on other duties, moved to other commands, or even confined during the investigation.

Additionally, military commanders can execute greater punishment with lesser evidence than a civilian court. Courts-martial are only one path (the one which more closely resemble civilian justice). A sailor can be put in the brig on only bread and water for a few days, docked pay for a few months, and separated from service by an O-5 or above via Article 15 NJP without a lick of evidence.

Edited by Jake
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One stat I found shows that 5% of reported sexual abuse cases end in conviction. (Not sure if sexual abuse here is the same as sexual assault.)

That is the same exact percentage as rape cases in the civilian world. Like you said, rape is hard to prove, "sexual abuse" even harder. You freely admit that you have nothing to back up your allegations, but you expect military authorities to perform miracles and prove every case beyond reasonable doubt.

Either that, or you expect them to start putting innocents in jail just to make the stats look better.

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