Jump to content
Objectivism Online Forum

Tragic and self explanatory (Gun Control)

Rate this topic


Kate87
 Share

Recommended Posts

I was going to weigh in on that as well: you can't blame drugs per se.

First, attributing a casual relationship between the drugs and kids like the CT shooter is bad science: correlation does not imply causality. You will probably also find that a lot more people who are on heart medication get heart attacks, for instance. Without context this data is meaningless.

Second, as the poster before implied, there are a lot of drugs and a lot of treatments treating a lot of different mental problems. It's improper to lump them all together.

Third, medical treatments are not an exact science in that there is complexity in the human body that is currently beyond our ability to predict. We try our best to predict everything we can, but there are so many variables that we will invariably get things wrong occasionally.

People looking for the "silver bullet" solution to this tragedy are going to be disappointed. Sometimes things just plain suck, and there's nothing you can do about it.

There are things that we know partially contributed to the tragedy, including:

1. Mental illness, and perhaps poor treatment, and perhaps poorly prescribed drugs.

which it seems may be common occurences as it applies to 'mass shootings'

2. Poorly prepared parent(s); lack of resources/visibility into the child's problems (i.e. this boy, "fell through the cracks" somehow).

if a crack was fallen through , what specifically were the bordering areas made of? we have in place a 'system' that oversees all individuals in society and when they veer near the edge they are prodded back into the safe areas? how many people does this wonderful agency employ?

3. The ubiquitous availability of extremely deadly weapons.

like the assault style weapons at our local 7/11? ubiquitous my ass. could perhaps this same incident have occured if the shooter had obtain an antique shootgun , yeah probably

4. Fox News, and the continual promises that the End is Nigh because a Democrat got elected, fostering the entire ridiculous "prepper" movement of which this boy's mother was a part.

Fox is responsible for violence , hmm, all I know is some of those ladies(commentators, reporters whatever the term 'specially at like 5 pm) are kinda cute

None of these factors can be "fixed" and all of them are extremely complex problems in their own right. Even if they were magically fixed we still might have witnessed this tragedy.

Edited by tadmjones
Link to comment
Share on other sites

People looking for the "silver bullet" solution to this tragedy are going to be disappointed. Sometimes things just plain suck, and there's nothing you can do about it.

There are things that we know partially contributed to the tragedy, including:

1. Mental illness, and perhaps poor treatment, and perhaps poorly prescribed drugs.

2. Poorly prepared parent(s); lack of resources/visibility into the child's problems (i.e. this boy, "fell through the cracks" somehow).

3. The ubiquitous availability of extremely deadly weapons.

4. Fox News, and the continual promises that the End is Nigh because a Democrat got elected, fostering the entire ridiculous "prepper" movement of which this boy's mother was a part.

I would not presume that the kid in CT had poor medical treatment. Nor would I presume that his mother was negligent in any way. My son had full-blown psychosis for several months before I realized it. It is difficult for a rational mind to comprehend the completely irrational. What is needed is information and awareness.

Concerning the availability of extremely deadly weapons, yes, sticks and stones have been available since the stone age are aren't likely to be banned anytime soon. For three-thousand years, people have been trying to put little pieces of metal into each other. In fact, this is an apt description of what history is a recond of. What is needed here is a morality of life and not of evasion and death.

C'mon, really? Fox News? Surely our arguments can be a little more elevated. The Chicken Little fairy tale exists because to some extent the "prepper" mentality has existed for millennia. I have witnessed a number of phony scares since my youth, such as global cooling and the looming man-caused ice-age. If people want to prep for the breakdown of society, then let them build Atlantis. It is harmless.

Finally, you should be aware that in 3.6 years the debt to GDP ratio of the US will reach that of Greece. There will be riots in the streets. Buy gold. Have a nice day!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@tadmjones --

2. I'm not talking about any government agency. We all employ a lot of doctors in our lives in one way or another, kids have teachers, relatives, friends, other parents, etc. etc. This kid obviously failed to get the help he needed despite all of that.

3. No, this incident needed very deadly weapons, e.g. the high capacity assault weapons he employed. Hunting rifles and bird guns would not have done damage like that. I'm not saying that banning these weapons would have prevented this incident entirely, but the deadliness of these weapons made it 10 times worse.

4. Fox News is at the forefront of today's Big Republican Lie that convinces rednecks and truck drivers that they should accept tax cuts for income brackets they could never hope to obtain not because its the morally correct thing to do (way too complicated) but rather because we're all going to die unless that happens asap. Preppers are the ones who take what they say seriously :-).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I would not presume that the kid in CT had poor medical treatment. Nor would I presume that his mother was negligent in any way. My son had full-blown psychosis for several months before I realized it. It is difficult for a rational mind to comprehend the completely irrational. What is needed is information and awareness.

I wasn't making a value judgement on the mother--I was speculating, as I was speculating about his treatment and/or meds. Obviously something went wrong, and it would be worthwhile for researchers to take a look at what.

Concerning the availability of extremely deadly weapons, yes, sticks and stones have been available since the stone age are aren't likely to be banned anytime soon. For three-thousand years, people have been trying to put little pieces of metal into each other. In fact, this is an apt description of what history is a recond of. What is needed here is a morality of life and not of evasion and death.

Although none of us can get inside of this kid's head, I would seriously wonder if this issue had much to do with morality as I suspect this was the result of sickness at some level.

C'mon, really? Fox News? Surely our arguments can be a little more elevated. The Chicken Little fairy tale exists because to some extent the "prepper" mentality has existed for millennia. I have witnessed a number of phony scares since my youth, such as global cooling and the looming man-caused ice-age. If people want to prep for the breakdown of society, then let them build Atlantis. It is harmless.

I've witnessed one phony scare after another as well, but I don't remember it being mainstream like this, and so tapped into commercial interests. The prepper movement is a byproduct of a key element of the Republican party rhetoric. Al Gore caused probably hundreds of thousands of dum-dums to move out of low-lying areas because of the imminent threat of global warming, too. I suspect there may be deaths associated with that and insofar as there were I'd blame the makers of Al Gore's movie to some extent as well.

In both cases the threat of a world-wide conspiracy seems to be a powerful political tool.

Finally, you should be aware that in 3.6 years the debt to GDP ratio of the US will reach that of Greece. There will be riots in the streets. Buy gold. Have a nice day!

Exactly :-).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can attest from experience that you are absolutely wrong concerning drugs related to mental illness.

I know.

My minority view is completely contrary to the narcoculture which ferverently holds to its religious view that every problem known to man can be eliminated simply by ingesting just the right chemical. No one has moral problems any more, they're all "chemical imbalances" which can be solved by finding the right drug to take.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The government only has a monopoly on force used for the purpose of exacting justice. For example, it has the right to prevent me from executing a murderer I have caught and tied up, but it does not have the right to punish me for subduing a murderer who has broken into my home. Both are uses of force, but only the former is retaliatory force.

Edited by oso
Link to comment
Share on other sites

we defer to the government the right to "retaliatory force" but is self defense really "retaliatory"

Yes, self-defense is retaliatory, because force is either defense/retaliation, or initiation.

does "defer" mean to "give up all together"?

Not necessarily. I never argued for banning guns, though.

I don't think we should conflate defense and retaliation. I think there is a valid distinction. Defensive force is emergency force; retaliatory force is not. If I'm walking down the street and someone tries to steal my backpack and run away with it, I have the right to use force to prevent the theft. If the criminal escapes, however, I do not have the right to throw the guy in a cage when I find him. The regulations that the government puts on force should be to define and separate the realms of defensive/retaliatory force - leaving defensive force to individuals and taking sole responsibility for retaliatory force. Part of this means securing the individual's right to defensive weaponry, and limiting access to weaponry that could not conceivably be used for defense or that could only be used defensively in limited circumstances.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

4. Fox News is at the forefront of today's Big Republican Lie that convinces rednecks and truck drivers that they should accept tax cuts for income brackets they could never hope to obtain not because its the morally correct thing to do (way too complicated) but rather because we're all going to die unless that happens asap. Preppers are the ones who take what they say seriously :-).

I manage and instruct truck drivers. Those that do listen to talk radio or Fox News (most do not) don't think anything like that. Your right that it is not a properly integrated understanding of the issues but no need to smear them with being a prepper like they all have tin foil hats on or something.

On the fun side however I do get the occational person who does come off the road with their head full of talk radio (conservative or NPR) talking points on the market and tries to lecture me on it, which is fairly entertaining.

Edited by Spiral Architect
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Finally, you should be aware that in 3.6 years the debt to GDP ratio of the US will reach that of Greece. There will be riots in the streets. Buy gold. Have a nice day!

People on the economic right have been predicting that for years. The US's debt situation is nothing like Greece's.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I manage and instruct truck drivers. Those that do listen to talk radio or Fox News (most do not) don't think anything like that. Your right that it is not a properly integrated understanding of the issues but no need to smear them with being a prepper like they all have tin foil hats on or something.

On the fun side however I do get the occational person who does come off the road with their head full of talk radio (conservative or NPR) talking points on the market and tries to lecture me on it, which is fairly entertaining.

Yeesh. Okay, bad choice of illustrative stereotype on my part...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crow, are there any good choices? You've put down all "preppers" as if all of them are nuts... Now I suspect that preppers do have a higher population of "crazies," but I also suspect there are a one or two simple and sane hobbyists. But that's beside my point. You used a blanket generalization to make another blanket generalization. That can't ever be good, can it? Imagine what would happen if a person let that kind of thinking get out of control; he might call everyone who watches FOX news crazy (or cable news, or just TV).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I've witnessed one phony scare after another as well, but I don't remember it being mainstream like this, and so tapped into commercial interests. The prepper movement is a byproduct of a key element of the Republican party rhetoric. Al Gore caused probably hundreds of thousands of dum-dums to move out of low-lying areas because of the imminent threat of global warming, too.

Al Gore is not even remotely close to Republican rhetoric. But regardless, people would have been smart to move out of the low lying areas of New Orleans before Katrina. In the 70's it was the crisis of of global cooling. This time it's global warming. If you live long enough you get to see the same patterns repeat themselves.

Ayn Rand's character John Galt was the ultimate prepper and he had common sense, so I took his example to heart and build my own "Galt's Gulch". Before you start disparaging preppers, consider the tens of millions of unaware unprepared fools who got the financial suckerpunch they deserved from the recessionary collapse of the credit/debt based economy.

That was no phony scare.

Edited by moralist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Al Gore is not even remotely close to Republican rhetoric. But regardless, people would have been smart to move out of the low lying areas of New Orleans before Katrina. In the 70's it was the crisis of of global cooling. This time it's global warming. If you live long enough you get to see the same patterns repeat themselves.

Ayn Rand's character John Galt was the ultimate prepper and he had common sense, so I took his example to heart and build my own "Galt's Gulch". Before you start disparaging preppers, consider the tens of millions of unaware unprepared fools who got the financial suckerpunch they deserved from the recessionary collapse of the credit/debt based economy.

That was no phony scare.

Have you stockpiled any tin foil hats yet? :P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Buying weapons before the downturn was not a particularly great investment.

The value of a weapon is when you need it to protect yourself.

As far as investment...

In 1913, you could buy a Colt .45 for the same price as an ounce of gold.

In 2013, you can buy a Colt .45 for the same price as an ounce of gold.

Intrinsic value remains constant... fiat paper currency is the variable.

Edited by moralist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

The value of a weapon is when you need it to protect yourself.

As far as investment...

In 1913, you could buy a Colt .45 for the same price as an ounce of gold.

In 2013, you can buy a Colt .45 for the same price as an ounce of gold.

Intrinsic value remains constant... fiat paper currency is the variable.

A new Colt .45 probably costs about 1/10th as much as it used to based on improved manufacturing. Sounds like Gold is drastically over valued right now then.

Also, about 12 years ago if you brought gold coins to a Toyota dealer to buy a fairly standard Camry family car, you'd have to bring about 60 ounces of gold.

Today you only need to bring about 18 ounces of the very same yellow metal to get basically the same new car.

Did the cost of building a car (complete with its thousands of subcontractors, raw materials, etc.) suddenly become 5 times cheaper?

Makes you think. No need though: every other commercial on Fox News tells you to buy gold--which are concurrent with the "news" stories about how the world is going to end Real Soon Now because we have a Communist in the White House and how run-away inflation is just around the corner just like they said it was just around the corner four years ago.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crow, one could just as easily make the claim that gold was undervalued twelve years ago. So the price of a car compared to gold isn't a good reason to claim gold is overvalued. Justifying such a claim will require much more than what you've left us with - your intuition that Fox news is Satan's snake oil salesman.

In thread after thread, you bash Fox in place of giving a real argument. Do you understand what kind of a reputation you are building with this pattern of behavior?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

This thread is getting off topic. Doesn't anyone want to discuss the tools and practices of retaliation vs defense?

I mentioned earlier that I don't see how a nuclear weapon could be used defensively. I think I've come up with something that kind of dovetails with this tinfoil hat discussion.

In 300 years, perhaps humans will have powered armor or giant robotic vehicles that they use to travel in the vacuum of space. Advancements in armor/hull technology and radiation shielding eventually mean that only the force of a small nuclear explosion can feasibly disable the device. Defending oneself from similarly equipped people would therefore require the use of small nuclear weapons. So a government might see fit to allow for the civilian manufacture and sale of such weapons, but ban the carry of such weapons within planetary atmospheres. Nuclear sidearms would be checked at orbiting space stations.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Crow, one could just as easily make the claim that gold was undervalued twelve years ago. So the price of a car compared to gold isn't a good reason to claim gold is overvalued. Justifying such a claim will require much more than what you've left us with - your intuition that Fox news is Satan's snake oil salesman.

In thread after thread, you bash Fox in place of giving a real argument. Do you understand what kind of a reputation you are building with this pattern of behavior?

Um, if Gold was undervalued 12 years ago then when was it correctly valued?

The notion I hear over and over with respect to gold is that it's the perfect arbiter of value and it can never be under/over valued. History has debunked that handily, as you yourself point out by the very idea of insinuating that gold was ever in a state of incorrect value.

If gold can be incorrectly valued ever, that means it could be incorrectly valued now.

And yes, I bash Fox News as a shorthand for bashing moronic religious populist conservatism. I'm perfectly happy with whatever reputation that might gain me.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

A new Colt .45 probably costs about 1/10th as much as it used to based on improved manufacturing.

It's the free Capitalist market that determines value, and for a century Colt has been tracking right along with gold... with the only variable being the number of paper dollars needed to purchase each.

I don't regard gold as an investment, because it isn't one. All it's good for is protection against devalued paper currency. I've never made one dime off of it because I'm not a greedy gambler who tries to get something for nothing. It is exactly the mindset of unearned entitlement which got a lot of fools the righteous fleecing they deserved in the collapse of the credit/debt system on which they were all betting.

Technically, I'm up way over 100%, but when you factor in the value of paper dollars, I'm dead even. And that's how it should be, because all I want is to protect the capital I work to create. By the way, there are many other ways to safely store wealth... land, homes, businesses, tools... even mundane things like clothes and shoes.

Edited by moralist
Link to comment
Share on other sites

FBI: MORE PEOPLE KILLED WITH HAMMERS, CLUBS EACH YEAR THAN RIFLES

Think about it: In 2005, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 445, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 605. In 2006, the number of murders committed with a rifle was 438, while the number of murders committed with hammers and clubs was 618.

And so the list goes, with the actual numbers changing somewhat from year to year, yet the fact that more people are killed with blunt objects each year remains constant.

For example, in 2011, there was 323 murders committed with a rifle but 496 murders committed with hammers and clubs.

I wonder how many unreported incidences where club or hammer wielding assailants were thwarted by gun bearing 'victims'.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

And yes, I bash Fox News as a shorthand for bashing moronic religious populist conservatism. I'm perfectly happy with whatever reputation that might gain me.

I've met John Stossel. He's a nice guy and I'm certain from the coversation I had he would be quite shocked to learn that he is a "moronic religious populist conservative".

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...