Nicky Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 But aside from that, separating from the government is easy. Simply give up the feelings of comfort and security of the expectation that others will bail you out by paying your bills... whether through government insurance, government healthcare, government education, government loans, government grants, government entitlements, government subsidisies, or government jobs... Government roads, government Police and firefighting services, etc, etc.? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Moralist is right, the quote is taken out of context to mean something other than what it means in context. But he's wrong about everything else. Christianity is an altruist system of faith. It requires of its followers to sacrifice for their fellow men, on principle. That in fact IS the moral stance that drives Obama and his supporters, as well as most Republicans and their supporters. That is also the premise behind both socialism and Nazi-ism, the two major "secular" political movements of the 20th century. The premise of altruism is the direct result of divorcing morality from causality. The two major religions which did that were Hinduism and Judaism. They declared that the Universe follows the arbitrary will of a supreme being and therefor morality is whatever arbitrary edicts they declare it is (Hinduism in fact broke with a much more rational view of karma as the law of cause and effect in action, as part of the unchangeable nature of the Universe). Christianity was the vehicle which carried that belief system all the way into the 19th century. All the "secular" fathers of socialism and Nazi-ism did was give it its current Latin (by way of French) name. They changed nothing, and added nothing, rational or irrational. It is the same irrational belief, doing the same damage it has always been doing, since its invention almost 3000 years ago. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonid Posted January 12, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Moralist : "For civil authorities are not a terror to people of good conduct, but to those of bad behavior." This is besides the point. A point is that for Christian Church all governments have a divine legitimation, no matter whether it's good or bad. They are appointed by Almighty Himself or by his worldly representatives. Speak about separation of Church and government! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiral Architect Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) Once context has been removed, you can even make Jesus look like an atheist if you choose to do so. But the Gods are atheists. They do not believe in a magical power superior to Themselves either. Just saying Edited January 12, 2013 by Spiral Architect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spiral Architect Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) Moralist : "For civil authorities are not a terror to people of good conduct, but to those of bad behavior." This is besides the point. A point is that for Christian Church all governments have a divine legitimation, no matter whether it's good or bad. They are appointed by Almighty Himself or by his worldly representatives. Speak about separation of Church and government! Leonid is right. Classically the church was the state in the Dark Ages which is why that era of suppression and forced poverty stagnated. Modern times it is still an assumption in some areas, like Islamic fundamentalists, The British Crown which is still considered to be owned by God and the Queen is His earthly representative (Yes, they don't act on that but it is still uncontested which speaks volumes), and in the dreams of Dominion Christian kooks that want to rewrite the history books in America to de-secularize the State into their own version of one-party rule. Edited January 12, 2013 by Spiral Architect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Thanks to separation of church and state. :-P Too bad the state isn't separated from the secular political religion of liberalism, because that "church" is the one with the real power of taxation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Moralist : "For civil authorities are not a terror to people of good conduct, but to those of bad behavior." This is besides the point. Hardly. That is an expression of a moral law from which no one is exempt. A point is that for Christian Church all governments have a divine legitimation, no matter whether it's good or bad. That's true. It is an irrefutable moral law that people get the government they deserve, because it is a just and deserved consequence of their own failure to govern themselves. Its people who create the government in their own image. Even secular atheists can understand that God does not create government. People do... for better or for worse. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 But the Gods are atheists. They do not believe in a magical power superior to Themselves either. Just saying Cute. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Government roads, government Police and firefighting services, etc, etc.? Those are not unearned entitlements where others bail you out by paying your bills. I'm happy to pay gas tax for roads and property tax for the other public amenities. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) Those are not unearned entitlements where others bail you out by paying your bills. I'm happy to pay gas tax for roads and property tax for the other public amenities. Why aren't you happy to pay for public health-care? What makes that less of an amenity than transportation? Too bad the state isn't separated from the secular political religion of liberalism, because that "church" is the one with the real power of taxation. Like I explained, and like the OP was saying, Liberal morality and Christian morality are one and the same. Obama got the Bible quote wrong, but he's right that altruism is the Christian morality. You've done nothing to address that point, you're just ignoring that it's ever been said. Edited January 12, 2013 by Nicky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Why aren't you happy to pay for public health-care? Because I'm happy to be personally responsible for my own health by paying my own bills. I fully understand that today paying your own bills has become a foreign concept. Huge bureaucracies which produce nothing have been created by people who expect others to pay their bills. Remember the oath? "I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Because I'm happy to be personally responsible for my own health by paying my own bills. I fully understand that today paying your own bills has become a foreign concept. Huge bureaucracies which produce nothing have been created by people who expect others to pay their bills. Remember the oath? "I swear, by my life and my love of it, that I will never live for the sake of another man, nor ask another man to live for mine." Why doesn't that apply to transportation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruveyn1 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 Because I'm happy to be personally responsible for my own health by paying my own bills. I fully understand that today paying your own bills has become a foreign concept. Huge bureaucracies which produce nothing have been created by people who expect others to pay their bills. Insurance against risk or casualty is an indirect way of paying one's bills. If incurring the risk is a chancy thing, then saving up for the risk as thought it were certain to happen is not the best way of using one's resources. There are a million risks we may suffer, and we do not have the resources to hedge against them all. That is why insurance or risk-sharing is so handy. ruveyn1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) Why doesn't that apply to transportation? I drive my own vehicles, thank you. And pay among the highest gas taxes and vehicle registration fees in the nation for the use of public roads. Mind you, this is not a complaint, as I'm satisfied with my own direct personal experience of getting the government I deserve. I appreciate the infrastructure amenities the government provides and am happy to pay for them. Edited January 12, 2013 by moralist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 (edited) Insurance against risk or casualty is an indirect way of paying one's bills. As I see it, you are betting against yourself. And to win the bet you need to experience calamity to win the prize of others paying your bills. Otherwise, all you are doing is paying other people's bills. While I'm not an Objectivist, insurance seems to run contrary to the motto of not living for the sake of others or asking them to live for you. It's akin to a Ponzi scam where everyone expects someone else to pay their bills. The government's solution to a corrupt and fraud riddled system which does not work is to try to coerce everyone to join their pyramid scam. Have you ever wondered why healthcare keeps getting more and more expensive and insurance rates are skyrocking out of sight? It's because no one pays their own bills. If incurring the risk is a chancy thing, then saving up for the risk as thought it were certain to happen is not the best way of using one's resources. That is a personal choice. I work to earn the money to pay my own bills because that is an American value. There are a million risks we may suffer, Life itself is an assumed risk. and we do not have the resources to hedge against them all. That is why insurance or risk-sharing is so handy. ruveyn1 That's fine. I'm not against insurance because it exists to serve those who need others to pay their bills. I just have no personal need for it because I can pay my own bills. Edited January 12, 2013 by moralist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruveyn1 Posted January 12, 2013 Report Share Posted January 12, 2013 That's fine. I'm not against insurance because it exists to serve those who need others to pay their bills. I just have no personal need for it because I can pay my own bills. I wish you good luck. If three calamities come home to you, do you have the funds to cover them all? ruveyn1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 I wish you good luck. If three calamities come home to you, do you have the funds to cover them all? ruveyn1 Yes. And if one of them happens to kill me it doesn't matter as long as I leave no debts to my descendants. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Moralist is right, the quote is taken out of context to mean something other than what it means in context. But he's wrong about everything else. Christianity is an altruist system of faith. It requires of its followers to sacrifice for their fellow men, on principle. That in fact IS the moral stance that drives Obama and his supporters, as well as most Republicans and their supporters. That is also the premise behind both socialism and Nazi-ism, the two major "secular" political movements of the 20th century. The premise of altruism is the direct result of divorcing morality from causality. The two major religions which did that were Hinduism and Judaism. They declared that the Universe follows the arbitrary will of a supreme being and therefor morality is whatever arbitrary edicts they declare it is (Hinduism in fact broke with a much more rational view of karma as the law of cause and effect in action, as part of the unchangeable nature of the Universe). Christianity was the vehicle which carried that belief system all the way into the 19th century. All the "secular" fathers of socialism and Nazi-ism did was give it its current Latin (by way of French) name. They changed nothing, and added nothing, rational or irrational. It is the same irrational belief, doing the same damage it has always been doing, since its invention almost 3000 years ago. If you are correct in your description of Christianity... then I'm not a Christian. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Liberal morality and Christian morality are one and the same. Hey, Nicky... I did want to make note of this particular statement of yours as point of agreement. Christianity fails miserably once it becomes institutionalized and bureaucratized into religious organizations. It takes on an immorally weak and feminized character which makes it a willing handmaiden of liberal government and its public policies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruveyn1 Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Yes. And if one of them happens to kill me it doesn't matter as long as I leave no debts to my descendants. Try these three: Your house burns down. Your business burns down. You contract a debilitating but not fatal disease. And you have no insurance for any of these casualties Now, can you afford this out of your own pocket? Who is better off. Someone who insured against these casualties or you, who have not? ruveyn1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 Try these three: Your house burns down. Your business burns down. You contract a debilitating but not fatal disease. And you have no insurance for any of these casualties Now, can you afford this out of your own pocket? Who is better off. Someone who insured against these casualties or you, who have not? ruveyn1 If I had your attitude, I'd run out and buy all of the insurance I could lay my hands on. I suggest you do just that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonid Posted January 13, 2013 Author Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 (edited) Western civilization enjoyed a relatively short period of separation Church from State-from French and American Revolutions till creation of a Welfare State. Welfarists stopped this trait on its tracks by deification of State. God is dead, they said, therefore his function should be picked up by the State Almighty. Indeed, today we have an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent everlasting State. It tells us what to eat, drink, inhale and wear. It instruct us how to build a house, to put together a motorcar and to bake a loaf of bread. It even takes care on natural phenomena of cosmic scale-like alleged climate change. And we know that we could have everything from state-roads, education, health care, jobs, if we pray enough, vote for Welfarists and pay taxes. Edited January 13, 2013 by Leonid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nicky Posted January 13, 2013 Report Share Posted January 13, 2013 I drive my own vehicles, thank you. And pay among the highest gas taxes and vehicle registration fees in the nation for the use of public roads. Mind you, this is not a complaint, as I'm satisfied with my own direct personal experience of getting the government I deserve. I appreciate the infrastructure amenities the government provides and am happy to pay for them. You didn't pay for them. You paid for a very small section of road. And I did too. And I didn't volunteer to pay for it, it was taken from me when I bought gas. And yet, there you are, happy with the situation. Why is you being forced to pay for government provided health-care different from me being forced to pay for government provided roads? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 You didn't pay for them. Yes, I do. I own all my vehicles outright... and I always buy new, pay in full, and in cash. You paid for a very small section of road. You can't be serious, Nicky. That's just plain silly. I pay commeasurate gasoline taxes which cover my share of the use of all roads. And I did too. And I didn't volunteer to pay for it, it was taken from me when I bought gas. And yet, there you are, happy with the situation. Yes. I make good money driving on those roads which is any I'm not the least bit resentful about paying taxes to keep them maintained. Bitterness only increases the need for healthcare. Why is you being forced to pay for government provided health-care different from me being forced to pay for government provided roads? Healthcare is completely different from roads. I don't need to drive over other people's bodies to get to work. I can take care of my own health without needing anyone else's help, but roads are publicly shared by everyone who drives on them, so everyone pays gas taxes for them. This isn't rocket science, you know. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ruveyn1 Posted January 14, 2013 Report Share Posted January 14, 2013 If I had your attitude, I'd run out and buy all of the insurance I could lay my hands on. I suggest you do just that. You did not answer the question I put to you. ruveyn1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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