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Leonid

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You did not answer the question I put to you.

ruveyn1

I did. It's just not the answer for you. It's only the answer for me because I don't share your negative fear filled attitude towards life. Insurance is useful and beneficial, and exists specifically to serve people with your view, which is why you should carry coverage for every conceivable contingency. Do you? That is your answer. Buy lots of insurance so that you will feel safe and secure in the knowledge that others will pay your bills.

Edited by moralist
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120202_obama_prayer_breakfast_605_ap.jpg

this from another article:

"President Obama urged religious leaders to back his plan to raise taxes on wealthy Americans — by saying that it is what Jesus would do.

Keeping with a presidential tradition, Obama spoke to the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington Thursday and passionately connected his policies to his religious faith."

http://www.nydailyne...0#ixzz2HjtExgCA

Just another case of a politician using whichever justification gains the most traction with interest groups. I wouldn't think much of it.

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120202_obama_prayer_breakfast_605_ap.jpg

this from another article:

"President Obama urged religious leaders to back his plan to raise taxes on wealthy Americans — by saying that it is what Jesus would do.

Keeping with a presidential tradition, Obama spoke to the National Prayer Breakfast in Washington Thursday and passionately connected his policies to his religious faith."

http://www.nydailyne...0#ixzz2HjtExgCA

Render unto Obama those things which are Obama's and unto God those things which are God's. Since Obama thinks his is God, He wins, either way.

ruveyn1

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Healthcare is completely different from roads. I don't need to drive over other people's bodies to get to work.

But you need me to pay a gas tax, to get to work. Without a gas tax, there would be no roads for you to get to work, right? That's your claim, that without the government forcibly taxing everyone to build the road system, you couldn't get to work. Therefor it's OK that the government forcibly taxes me to build the roads.

How exactly does that fit with the Galt quote you used?

This isn't rocket science, you know.

May not be rocket science, but you're not getting it. You're using need to justify taxation. Obama is using need to justify Obamacare. Same principle at work, the only difference is that you don't think anyone needs Obamacare. Which, of course, is not true, plenty of people desperately need it.

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We need an armed force to protect our nation from hostile Bad Guys. Do you think would would have a sufficient army if it were privately owned and funded. And what would keep such an army on the straight and narrow, protecting the nation instead of trying run it.

ruveyn1

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But you need me to pay a gas tax, to get to work.

Not you specifically. You could not purchase gasoline tax and take government public transportation and no one would ever notice.

Without a gas tax, there would be no roads for you to get to work, right?

No. There just as well could have been private toll roads where you pay to drive within a company's grid. But gas tax works out nicely as it is directly and fairly proportional to each drivers use of the roads.

That's your claim,

I'm not sure why you're arguing this point, Nicky. That is not my claim.

that without the government forcibly taxing everyone to build the road system, you couldn't get to work.

(sigh... still you persist) Can't you understand that I am not forcibly taxed. I happily and willingly pay for the use of public roads.

Therefore it's OK that the government forcibly taxes me to build the roads.

You are NOT forcibly taxed. You are NOT forced to buy gasoline. You are perfectly free to walk, ride a bicycle, or take public transportation. Driving is NOT a right. It is an earned merit, not an unearned entitlement.

How exactly does that fit with the Galt quote you used?

May not be rocket science, but you're not getting it. You're using need to justify taxation. Obama is using need to justify Obamacare. Same principle at work, the only difference is that you don't think anyone needs Obamacare.

OK. Now I understand why you've been trying so hard to make inanimate public roads the equivalent of animate private personal bodies. You expect others to pay your bills.

Which, of course, is not true, plenty of people desperately need it.

In the earned merit system of American Capitalism... need is NOT a qualifier.

Besides healthcare, people also desperately need others to pay their bills for food, clothing, housing, transportation, schooling, jobs, loans, and cars. For those who demand a system of unearned entitelement, Marx is their solution... "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

Edited by moralist
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"from each according to their ability, to each according to their need."

people with very limited ability and very big needs collect your tax money. For roads, health care, education and daily bread people should be able to pay themselves. Whoever is not, should relay on charity. But taxation is forceful redistribution of wealth, in other words- a robbery. As for proper government function people will pay voluntary, as they pay insurance today.

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You are NOT forcibly taxed. You are NOT forced to buy gasoline.

The first statement doesn't follow from the second one. Just because I'm not forced to buy gasoline doesn't mean I'm not forcibly taxed if I buy it.

You are perfectly free to walk, ride a bicycle, or take public transportation.

Same is true for Obamacare. You are perfectly free to never earn any money, and then you don't have to pay for Obamacare in any way. The only people forced to buy "insurance" are those with jobs.

The point is, I DO have the right to buy gasoline, and you don't have the right to steal a certain percent off the top anytime I do, to pay for your road.

If you want roads, you should build them yourself, don't have government thugs take my money to build them.

Driving is NOT a right. It is an earned merit, not an unearned entitlement.

First off, there are other uses to gasoline besides driving. Second, yes, driving my own car, on my own property, is a right. You stealing money from me, when I buy gasoline, is what's not a right.

Edited by Nicky
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The first statement doesn't follow from the second one. Just because I'm not forced to buy gasoline doesn't mean I'm not forcibly taxed if I buy it.

Then your solution is obvious, Nicky. Don't buy gasoline.

Same is true for Obamacare. You are perfectly free to never earn any money, and then you don't have to pay for Obamacare in any way. The only people forced to buy "insurance" are those with jobs.

Now you're really sounding silly.

The point is, I DO have the right to buy gasoline

No you don't.

Buying gasoline is an earned merit, not an unearned entitlement.

and you don't have the right to steal a certain percent off the top anytime I do, to pay for your road.

You only pay for your use of the roads, not mine.

If you want roads, you should build them yourself, don't have government thugs take my money to build them.

Don't you think it's kind of childish to feel entitled to use roads for which you do not earn the right by paying for them? I'm glad that your attitude has no effect on the morality of paying for what you use.

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Moralist:

"Don't you think it's kind of childish to feel entitled to use roads for which you do not earn the right by paying for them? "

People should pay for the use of roads, petrol and everything else they use or consume. However such a payment has to be voluntary and the price should be determined by free market. Taxes are not payment for service, in spite that government wants you to believe they are. Taxes are money which is forcible removed from you under the threat of force and government uses this money as like as it pleases. It can build roads with it or invade Somali or give it as foreign aid to Egypt etc...You have no say about it. You cannot use a morality of fair trade when you deal with robbery. It would be like to ask a robber to give you a lift since you already payed him.

Edited by Leonid
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People should pay for the use of roads, petrol and everything else they use or consume.

On this we agree.

However such a payment has to be voluntary and the price should be determined by free market.

As far as I'm concerned it's voluntary, because I freely choose to purchase gasoline knowing in advance that a portion of the money pays for my share of the use of roads. And since I use roads as a tool to make money, it becomes a business expense which is passed on to the end users of my products and services.

But since you perceive this as an injustice... what are you actually doing about it?

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As far as I'm concerned it's voluntary, because I freely choose to purchase gasoline knowing in advance that a portion of the money pays for my share of the use of roads. And since I use roads as a tool to make money, it becomes a business expense which is passed on to the end users of my products and services.

What if I ride my bike to work but use gas for other purposes like a generator - is that fair? I don't use the roads but I am still being taxed.

Furthermore, this boils down to whether or not you think government has a role in the economy or that its sole purpose is to protect individual rights.

How is it protecting my rights by enforcing a tax on gas for roads that I don't have any use for?

By the way, Nicky is right. You are using the same logic Obama is using for healthcare.

But since you perceive this as an injustice... what are you actually doing about it?

Again, changing people's philosophy by persuasion is the best way to make change. However, this is a forum made to discuss Ayn Rand's ideas. It is not an activist forum. She thought it was an injustice to have a gas tax and I agree.

Edited by thenelli01
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What if I ride my bike to work but use gas for other purposes like a generator - is that fair? I don't use the roads but I am still being taxed.

Using gasoline for other purposes is so small as to be irrelevant compared to it's overwhelming use in vehicles. If you want to view yourself as a helpless victim of a greivous injustice, that's your own free choice to do so.

With so much the government gets wrong, I find it odd that people would strain at this gnat while they swallow the whole camel on other real issues.

Again, changing people's philosophy by persuasion is the best way to make change.

That's not actually doing anything because everyone has already chosen their view and only real world experience can change that, not mere words on an internet forum.

When I asked what you are doing about this perceived injustice, I was not referring to activism, because that implies collective action taken as a part of some dissident group. I was asking what are you personally doing about what you perceive to be an injustice in your own life?

Edited by moralist
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Using gasoline for other purposes is so small as to be irrelevant compared to it's overwhelming use in vehicles. If you want to view yourself as a helpless victim of a greivous injustice, that's your own free choice to do so.

With so much the government gets wrong, I find it odd that people would strain at this gnat while they swallow the whole camel on other real issues.

Small for who? And it is irrelevant whether the gas is used by cars or for a tractor. Roads are not a proper function of the government and I have the right to buy gasoline without getting forced into a service by the government.

That's not actually doing anything because everyone has already chosen their view and only real world experience can change that and not mere words on an internet forum.

I have learned more following Internet discussions than I ever have through discussions in the "real world".

And you're missing the point - this is a forum about Ayn Rand's ideas - not about coming up with a plan to change the government. Ayn Rand believed the gas tax was an injustice and I agree with her. What am I going to do about it? Develop a better understanding of my ideas, which in turn will allow me to articulate better why it is an injustice, which will persuade people my way. However, I can't stress this enough - the purpose of this forum is not to come up with a plan to fix injustices. No matter how many times you repeat "what are you doing about this injustice" throughout the forum, it doesn't make you right.

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I did. It's just not the answer for you. It's only the answer for me because I don't share your negative fear filled attitude towards life. Insurance is useful and beneficial, and exists specifically to serve people with your view, which is why you should carry coverage for every conceivable contingency. Do you? That is your answer. Buy lots of insurance so that you will feel safe and secure in the knowledge that others will pay your bills.

I am so filled with fear that I check the pressure on my tires at least once a week. Precaution is the daughter of fear. Also people who take precautions tend to live longer.

Live long and prosper. And the best of luck to you.

ruveyn1 (who is part Vulcan)

\\//

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Small for who? And it is irrelevant whether the gas is used by cars or for a tractor. Roads are not a proper function of the government and I have the right to buy gasoline without getting forced into a service by the government.

Again, what are you personally doing about this perceived injustice in your own life?

I have learned more following Internet discussions than I ever have through discussions in the "real world".

Ah, you just hit upon the source of our difference of views. All of my learning is in the real world. This is just entertainment in the virtual world of anonymous interactive television.

And you're missing the point - this is a forum about Ayn Rand's ideas - not about coming up with a plan to change the government.

You misunderstood what I referred to "what are you doing about it?" so I'll clarify. I'm asking how are you acting to change your own life in the real world in response to the perceived injustices you have noted here in the virtual world? No one person can change the government because the political majority have created it in their own image. So there is no plan how to change the government. Only to change your own life by the way you respond to the government which was created by others in their own image.

Ayn Rand believed the gas tax was an injustice and I agree with her. What am I going to do about it? Develop a better understanding of my ideas, which in turn will allow me to articulate better why it is an injustice, which will persuade people my way

It's good that you are making clear exactly where we differ. In my view, only our own actions which we take in the real world and the example we set for others by our behavior have any real persuasive power to convince others.

However, I can't stress this enough - the purpose of this forum is not to come up with a plan to fix injustices.

Not even in your own life? If not there, then what's the point?

Here, I'll tell you how I completely resolved the issue of gas tax in my own life so that you might understand our differences in approach.

I make money from using the roads for which I pay that tax. For me, the tax is not a problem as it is a cost of business which I pay to financially profit from using public roads.That cost of doing business is incorporated into the the price paid for the goods and services which I offer for sale to others.

So what is the solution to this issue in my own life?

productivity

If I did not produce anything useful for a profit, then I would regard paying gas tax for the use of roads as an injustice. But note, the tax itself isn't unjust... it would be my own failure to be productive that would have made it an injustice.

No matter how many times you repeat "what are you doing about this injustice" throughout the forum, it doesn't make you right.

That's correct. I'm not what is right. I'm only talking about what is right.

Edited by moralist
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Again, what are you personally doing about this perceived injustice in your own life?

What does it matter in a debate about whether or not it is an injustice?

Ah, you just hit upon the source of our difference of views. All of my learning is in the real world. This is just entertainment in the virtual world of anonymous interactive television.

I said that to refute your earlier point that everyone only changes their view through real life experience...

That's not actually doing anything because everyone has already chosen their view and only real world experience can change that, not mere words on an internet forum.

That simply isn't true. The people on the internet are real people. Just as the authors who write books are real people. Should we disregard anything every past philosopher has said because their bodies aren't here to have a real world conversation with us? A persuasive book or blog or article can be the best way to learn.

You misunderstood what I referred to "what are you doing about it?" so I'll clarify. I'm asking how are you acting to change your own life in the real world in response to the perceived injustices you have noted here in the virtual world? No one person can change the government because the political majority have created it in their own image. So there is no plan how to change the government. Only to change your own life by the way you respond to the government which was created by others in their own image.

What do my personal actions have to do with whether or not something is an injustice?

It's good that you are making clear exactly where we differ. In my view, only our own actions which we take in the real world and the example we set for others by our behavior have any real persuasive power to convince others.

Then disregard any book, article or anything on the internet..

I make money from using the roads for which I pay that tax. For me, the tax is not a problem as it is a cost of business which I pay to financially profit from using public roads.That cost of doing business is incorporated into the the price paid for the goods and services which I offer for sale to others.

So what is the solution to this issue in my own life?

productivity

If I did not produce anything useful for a profit, then I would regard paying gas tax for the use of roads as an injustice. But note, the tax itself isn't unjust... it would be my own failure to be productive that would have made it an injustice.

How is it fair to people that use gas for different purposes or do those people not matter? If we agree that the government's purpose is to protect the rights of all citizens, Is the government protecting their rights by doing this and how?

Edited by thenelli01
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It's good that you are making clear exactly where we differ. In my view, only our own actions which we take in the real world and the example we set for others by our behavior have any real persuasive power to convince others.

This forum is part of the "real world." And participating in this forum, conversing, clarifying one's understanding, learning to articulate one's views -- all of these are "actions which we take in the real world."

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What does it matter in a debate about whether or not it is an injustice?

Note there's no argument on that. I conceded to your view that you regard it as an injustice. I only inquired as to you what you are doing about it.

I said that to refute your earlier point that everyone only changes their view through real life experience...

...and not just real life experience. It has to be genuinely life threatening or life altering to make a person switch views. For example, from liberal to conservative or from secular to religious. Anything short of that and everyone goes to their grave taking with them what they chose and all of its consequences..

That simply isn't true. The people on the internet are real people. Just as the authors who write books are real people.

Of course that's true that the people are real. But the internet has no actual direct real world personal contact because it is only a virtual world. It's just anonymous people typing messages on a public bulletin board for anyone who happens to read them.

Should we disregard anything every past philosopher has said because their bodies aren't here to have a real world conversation with us?

No. But it's your own responsibility to prove for yourself the veracity of their words through your own actual direct real world personal experience. Only in the real world does "the rubber meet the road".

A persuasive book or blog or article can be the best way to learn.

And how do you know what you are reading is truth or lies?... unless you first test by observing the consequences of your own real world actions, or observe the actual experience of others and the consequences they set into motion by their actions?

What do my personal actions have to do with whether or not something is an injustice?

Sorry, but I didn't dispute the fact that you regard gas tax as an injustice. I was curious as to what you actually did about that injustice and you've made it clear that you do nothing.

Edited by moralist
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Moralist said

Sorry, but I didn't dispute the fact that you regard gas tax as an injustice. I was curious as to what you actually did about that injustice and you've made it clear that you do nothing.

He clearly recognizes it, and by evidence argrues against. If the gasoline taxes are acceptable in a capitalist society, what taxes are not?

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He clearly recognizes it, and by evidence argues against.

I understand. And my point is that merely arguing against something is actually doing nothing about it.

If the gasoline taxes are acceptable in a capitalist society,

They're acceptable as far as I'm concerned, because I directly benefit by making money from using the roads for which I pay my share of their maintenance and my use.

This is Business 101, but since there are very few American Capitalist producers left in America, this economic principle is not generally understood.

what taxes are not?

Those which redistribute wealth, of course.

Edited by moralist
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The gasoline tax is an indirect way of paying for the maintenance of the roads. It is best thought of as a use tax rather than a redistribution of income.

ruveyn1

Of course. And that's why I don't regard it as an injustice. I make money using roads and the gas tax is just a business expense that gets passed on.

Edited by moralist
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