moralist Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 (edited) They quited and started from the scratch. Yes they did. So ditch the immoral European liberal socialist third party payer system (which infests government, credit, insurance, healthcare, debt, law, education, unions)... and use the American Capitalist system instead. Americans have the luxury of not needing to start from scratch. An alternative ethical economic system was used in Galt's Gulch, and that system already exists right here and now. Fewer and fewer people are using it only because Capitalist producers are a rapidly dwindling minority. Edited February 28, 2013 by moralist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondhander Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Jesus also said "blessed are the poor," and I'd hate to take that blessing away from them. Besides, if it's true that "for everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded," then I say it's time to demand much from those who have received a lot of handouts. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Jesus also said "blessed are the poor," and I'd hate to take that blessing away from them. Besides, if it's true that "for everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded," then I say it's time to demand much from those who have received a lot of handouts. While I agree with the point of your humor, there's more to that verse: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
secondhander Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 While I agree with the point of your humor, there's more to that verse: "Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." Yeah, I was making a joke. I know you guys are having an actually serious conversation here, and now that I've gotten my joke out of my system I might have to join in, too. I will say that I find it interesting that you are one (of many apparently) people who are trying to merge objectivism with a system of religious faith. I think you are trying to combine two fundamental opposites, and will probably figure that out eventually, but it's amusing (and I'm not mocking ... yet ) to see your attempts and follow your arguments. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted February 28, 2013 Report Share Posted February 28, 2013 Yeah, I was making a joke. I know you guys are having an actually serious conversation here, and now that I've gotten my joke out of my system I might have to join in, too. I will say that I find it interesting that you are one (of many apparently) people who are trying to merge objectivism with a system of religious faith. I think you are trying to combine two fundamental opposites, and will probably figure that out eventually, but it's amusing (and I'm not mocking ... yet ) to see your attempts and follow your arguments. Since my vocation involves a flow of constant creative adaptation of things to unintended uses... that same approach gets applied everything else. And I see absolutely no conflict between Ayn Rand's principle of selfish interest and the moral principle of doing what's right, because doing what's morally right is always in our best selfish interests. As far as God is concerned, I'm a behaviorist, and not a doctrinaire. God doesn't need anyone's belief. He only wants us to do good because it's good for us to do good. So belief in God is not necessary to love what's right enough to do it, and to enjoy the rewards. Just like the law of gravity... moral law is exactly the same for everyone. It's the same rain which falls equally on the just and the unjust. Whether we drink it or drown in it is totally up to us. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dream_weaver Posted March 1, 2013 Report Share Posted March 1, 2013 "God doesn't need anyone's belief." Went looking for Who mourns for Adonais, in "which the Enterprise picks up signals of an unknown life form near the planet Pollux IV of Beta Geminorum system. This turns out to be the God Apollo - a man-shaped entity with an extra organ in his chest, through which he could channel extraordinary energies. After retiring here from Earth, Apollo missed the adoration he had from the Greeks. He tries to force the Enterprise crew to worship him as a God. When they refuse, he dissolves himself into the wind." when this quote was stumbled upon. "They were Gods once, but their worshipers either died out or were converted to the worship of other Gods. They wail and flutter around the edges of reality without substance or even thought. All they have is need. ... We go out of fashion, Sparhawk—like last year's gowns or old shoes and hats. The Powerless Ones are discarded Gods who shrink and shrink as the years go by until they're finally nothing at all but a kind of anguished wailing." — The Goddess Aphrael, The Hidden City, David Eddings In terms of the power of a god determined the by quantity of its worshipers, Allah of Islam is a success story in this time. To see what it brings about by behaviorist rather than a doctrinaire, one only need look to the middle east to observe what abiding by Allah's "good", because it is "good" for them to do, and what "rewards" are heaped upon them for loving what is "right" enough to do. Yes, moral law is exactly the same for everyone. And just like the law of gravity, it can be discovered and validated by objective observation. In this way, Rand is akin to Newton in identifying what the roots of morality rely upon, firmly entrenching them in the soil of existence as it pertains to the maintenance and flourishing of consciousness. moralist and whYNOT 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leonid Posted March 5, 2013 Author Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 (edited) cancel. Edited March 5, 2013 by Leonid Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moralist Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 (edited) In terms of the power of a god determined the by quantity of its worshipers, Allah of Islam is a success story in this time. I would also add the power of government to your example... as leftism is presently the most dynamic and fastest growing religion on the planet. To see what it brings about by behaviorist rather than a doctrinaire, one only need look to the middle east to observe what abiding by Allah's "good", because it is "good" for them to do, and what "rewards" are heaped upon them for loving what is "right" enough to do. Islam also conforms to just moral law. It is an example of the just consequences of worshipping a false god. It has the opportunity to undergo a reformation, but that is an open question. America also conforms to the justice of moral law as it is presently an example of the just and deserved consequences of worshipping the false god of government. Yes, moral law is exactly the same for everyone. And just like the law of gravity, it can be discovered and validated by objective observation. In this way, Rand is akin to Newton in identifying what the roots of morality rely upon, firmly entrenching them in the soil of existence as it pertains to the maintenance and flourishing of consciousness. This is what I love about Ayn Rand... her strong sense of justice. Edited March 5, 2013 by moralist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thenelli01 Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 (edited) And I see absolutely no conflict between Ayn Rand's principle of selfish interest and the moral principle of doing what's right, because doing what's morally right is always in our best selfish interests. But first you need to answer how you decide what is morally right. This is where the fundamental difference between Ayn Rand and religionists lies. Reason vs. faith. It is our rational self interest, according to Rand, that is morally right. To understand why (which at this point I don't think you care to do), you need to read some of her books. Edited March 5, 2013 by thenelli01 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dream_weaver Posted March 5, 2013 Report Share Posted March 5, 2013 I would also add the power of government to your example... as leftism is presently the most dynamic and fastest growing religion on the planet. Islam also conforms to just moral law. It is an example of the just consequences of worshipping a false god. It has the opportunity to undergo a reformation, but that is an open question. So now we have presumably false/wrong gods to contrast with true/right gods, false/wrong gods of government to contrast with perhaps true/right gods of government? According to you here, "Everyone who is an adult already knows right from wrong." Right about what? Wrong about what? And specifically by what means did they come to know right about something from wrong about it? Or in other words, by what means do you determine this? And even earlier you stated "Arguments are pointless when there is neither proof for or against God" (now presumably false and true ones.) But arguments here, in this forum, are generally purposeful. Assertions which are proven by sound argument are considered true, right and correct. Assertions which reveal contradictions are considered false,wrong and incorrect. Your assertions in and of themselves are bereft of being contradiction free. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
intellectualammo Posted March 6, 2013 Report Share Posted March 6, 2013 (edited) In his short address last Thursday, February 7, at the annual National Prayer Breakfast, President Barack Obama repeatedly stressed the virtue of humility, and especially the need for political leaders to be humble. In his brief remarks, the president used the word “humility” four times and the words “humble,” “humbled,” or “humbling” five times. In the closing paragraph of his speech, President Obama told his audience: And so this morning, let us summon the common resolve that comes from our faith. Let us pray to God that we may be worthy of the many blessings He has bestowed upon our nation. Let us retain that humility not just during this hour but for every hour. And let me suggest that those of us with the most power and influence need to be the most humble. Ayn Rand says humility is "the rejection of morality" "Discard the protective rags of that vice which you call a virtue: humility" "learn and value yourself" "and when you learn that pride is the sum of all virtues, you will learn to live like a man" Thus Spoke John Galt http://aynrandlexicon.com/lexicon/humility.html Jesus on humility: http://www.pbministries.org/Theology/kohler/kohler_02.htm Edited March 6, 2013 by intellectualammo Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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