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Leonid

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Then it's totally up to me to withold my sanction so as not to become it's victim by using public roads to make money.

Your own direct personal experience of getting the government you deserve is wholly dependent on how you are living your life. While two people can be citizens of exactly the same nation's government... one is a helpless victim of the state... while another is an independent productive Capitalist.

That choice is solely your own.

You don't have choice not to pay taxes including a tax on roads. It's taken from you by force and your sanction is not required. Independent capitalist by government permission is a contradiction in terms.

Edited by Leonid
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You'll just have to work out what you perceive as an injustice for yourself. For I am just as powerless to alter government public policy as you are... but we both have the power over how we each choose to respond to it. So, as an alternative to impotent complaining, my response was to learn how to turn a perceived injustice into a genuine blessing by becoming an American Capitalist producer who uses public roads to make money.

I don't think this is called AmericanCapitalist.com

This is pragmatism at its finest, particularly because you make no moral objection whatsoever to taxation, nor are you asking a single question about it. The nature of force is that you are not in control of whether you pay taxes. If you have a point, then make it, but if your only point is pragmatism where any possible injustice is one's own fault for not reasonably responding to actions, because force is at best an illusion, then you are in the wrong forum. I judge this from 500+ posts of yours. Anything you've ever espoused is pragmatism and never even talk about Objectivism except that you really really like Atlas Shrugged. I may be out of line here, but really, this forum is not merely your soapbox.

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You don't have choice not to pay taxes including a tax on roads.

I've not argued against this point because it's true, Leonid.

However, I have clearly described my own response to taxed public roads and explained specifically how it is different from your own. So instead of impotent complaints about being a victim of the government, I chose to turn exactly the same situation you face to my own advantage through being productive.

The real problem is not the government. The government is not the enemy. The real problem is a personal failure to be productive. And it is precisely that failure which grants the government sanction to make people its victims. You'll remain a victim until you realize that you are only doing it to yourself. You've made it clear that you have already made your choice, just as I have made mine. And we are each getting exactly the consequences we deserve.

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This is pragmatism at its finest, particularly because you make no moral objection whatsoever to taxation

Because no one here can read everything written by others, your response indicates that you've not read my numerous moral condemnations of the corrupt economically toxic third party payer system of government, law, credit, insurance, education, healthcare, debt, and unions... and why it's prudent to take the necessary actions to avoid becoming contaminated.

But understand this... neither yours or my "moral objections" has one whit of power to set taxation policies. This is because the tax policy has already been determined by the political majority who happen to be parasites... and until there are more producers in America than there are moochers and public union looters who service the moocher's demands...

...that public policy of taxation will not change.

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However, I have clearly described my own response to taxed public roads and explained specifically how it is different from your own.

I know you're speaking to someone else here, but I need to say something about this.

Your "response" to taxed public roads is completely immaterial to the argument that there ought to be no such taxes. You speak as though you're the only one who uses the roads in the course of your daily business (i.e. to "profit"), but of course that's far from the case. Everyone here "profits" in some manner using the roads.

But one's response can go beyond simply making the best use of the current system ("making lemonade"). Also available as a response is coming to understand the underlying nature of the system: what parts are good, which parts are bad, and what can be improved. One's response can also involve seeking to make things better, not simply in maximizing one's profits given the system, but in changing the system to allow for more, and for better. One can be an "American Capitalist" and simultaneously fight for a just government. These "responses" are not mutually exclusive.

So instead of impotent complaints about being a victim of the government, I chose to turn exactly the same situation you face to my own advantage through being productive.

Your characterizations are insulting and errant. Coercive taxation is wrong and destructive, and it is not "impotent" to recognize that or to say so. Actual change in the world, time and again, begins with such things; philosophy is very powerful, and poor philosophy currently stands at the heart of the problems against which we combat. Thus, those problems must first be fought on that most fundamental level, whatever else we do to live well.

The real problem is not the government. The government is not the enemy. The real problem is a personal failure to be productive.

How dare you act as though you know anyone here well enough to comment on their personal productiveness?

No. The "real problem" here is your failure to understand the subject matter at hand. Perhaps if you were being scourged in a gulag, you'd say that the "real problem" wasn't the jailers or the whips or the injustice you were suffering -- no sense in trying to escape, no sense in anybody else trying to reform the system -- but that you should just try to "make lemonade" by, I don't know, making birdhouses out of such twigs and twine that you could find. Maybe that's your "solution." And maybe you would build some birdhouses? But it wouldn't be very "productive" of you, in my way of thinking.

And it is precisely that failure which grants the government sanction to make people its victims. You'll remain a victim until you realize that you are only doing it to yourself.

Being taxed against your will is the very soul of something you're not "only doing to yourself." Your "solution" of not minding it when the government takes such measures, and even accounting it a good and thanking them for the lemons, will certainly not convince the government -- or anybody -- to stop. It is an invitation to further and deeper abuse, whether you are capable of recognizing that or not.

You've made it clear that you have already made your choice, just as I have made mine. And we are each getting exactly the consequences we deserve.

You have no idea what you're talking about. Stop speaking to people here as though you know them -- stick to the subjects of discussion -- or in terms of this forum at least, I will endeavor to ensure that you truly do receive the consequences you deserve.

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I know you're speaking to someone else here,

I was.

And it was a direct response to Leonid's comments about government taxed public roads as being unjust, and my own approach to personally resolve (just for me, and for no one else) resolve an issue for which I have absolutely no power to change.

Your "response" to taxed public roads is completely immaterial to the argument that there ought to be no such taxes.

Ok. I'll cede you the same point as with Leonid. So what is your own response to this injustice? What are you doing about it?

You speak as though you're the only one who uses the roads in the course of your daily business (i.e. to "profit"), but of course that's far from the case. Everyone here "profits" in some manner using the roads.

Then doesn't it follow that everyone should rightfully pay for their proportional share of their use of those roads? Oh wait, they already do... through gasoline tax.

But one's response can go beyond simply making the best use of the current system ("making lemonade"). Also available as a response is coming to understand the underlying nature of the system: what parts are good, which parts are bad, and what can be improved.

Ok. How are you improving the bad parts?

One's response can also involve seeking to make things better, not simply in maximizing one's profits given the system,

Maximizing profits is a fundamental principle of Capitalism... and my business is making things better.

but in changing the system to allow for more, and for better.

Great. How are you doing that?

One can be an "American Capitalist" and simultaneously fight for a just government. These "responses" are not mutually exclusive.

I agree. Of course they're not. So how are you "fighting for a just government"?

I'll tell you how I "fight for a just government"... by being just. I have no power to set public policy because that has already been set by the political majority. However, I do have the power to set my own policy, and so that is exactly what I do, and setting my own policy beneficially affects everyone who is within my personal sphere of influence. Everything else which is outside my own direct personal sphere of influence is within the personal sphere of influence of others, and is their personal responsibility to set their own policies.

Coercive taxation is wrong and destructive, and it is not "impotent" to recognize that or to say so.

Well, that's where we differ in views. I don't regard paying for the roads I use as being wrong and destructive. Clearly there are other taxes which are wrong and destructive, but this discussion was specifically about public roads which are literally one of the few constructive services the government happens to do at least half way decently.

If you'd like to discuss other forms of taxation besides roads, I think you'd find that we'd have much more common ground.

Actual change in the world, time and again, begins with such things; philosophy is very powerful, and poor philosophy currently stands at the heart of the problems against which we combat. Thus, those problems must first be fought on that most fundamental level, whatever else we do to live well.

Ok. What do you do to fight on that most fundamental level?

No. The "real problem" here is your failure to understand the subject matter at hand. Perhaps if you were being scourged in a gulag, you'd say that the "real problem" wasn't the jailers or the whips or the injustice you were suffering -- no sense in trying to escape, no sense in anybody else trying to reform the system -- but that you should just try to "make lemonade" by, I don't know, making birdhouses out of such twigs and twine that you could find. Maybe that's your "solution." And maybe you would build some birdhouses? But it wouldn't be very "productive" of you, in my way of thinking.

For the subject matter you raised, I highly recommend the book "Man's Search for Meaning" by the psychologist, Viktor Frankl. It's about his personal experience in the concentration camps. It's about how he "made lemonade".

Being taxed against your will is the very soul of something you're not "only doing to yourself."

How you respond to it is.

Your "solution" of not minding it when the government takes such measures, and even accounting it a good and thanking them for the lemons, will certainly not convince the government -- or anybody -- to stop. It is an invitation to further and deeper abuse, whether you are capable of recognizing that or not.

Again... my own attitude has absolutely no power to set government policy. That has already been determined by the political majority. I only have power of choosing how I respond to it. Life is far too short to be bitter and angry and about things which are completely beyond my power to change...

...but it's never too short to turn a liability into a personal asset.

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And it was a direct response to Leonid's comments about government taxed public roads as being unjust, and my own approach to personally resolve (just for me, and for no one else) resolve an issue for which I have absolutely no power to change.

Whatever you resolve to do for yourself has nothing to do with whether the tax is just or unjust -- it is irrelevant.

Ok. I'll cede you the same point as with Leonid. So what is your own response to this injustice? What are you doing about it?

No. This is precisely what we're not going to do.

The details of my life -- and how I respond to injustice -- have nothing at all to do with determining whether a given law or tax is just or unjust. Discuss the issues and not the people.

Then doesn't it follow that everyone should rightfully pay for their proportional share of their use of those roads? Oh wait, they already do... through gasoline tax.

Without such a tax, people would still pay for their use of the roads -- through market mechanisms. Taxation does not bring anything to the table, but it does infringe upon liberty in the way that all such coercion does.

Well, that's where we differ in views. I don't regard paying for the roads I use as being wrong and destructive. Clearly there are other taxes which are wrong and destructive, but this discussion was specifically about public roads which are literally one of the few constructive services the government happens to do at least half way decently.

Taxation is not the same thing as a voluntary payment. That you pay this tax happily and think the government does a fine job with it, does not change the nature of what it is.

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Whatever you resolve to do for yourself has nothing to do with whether the tax is just or unjust -- it is irrelevant.

That's quite right. What I do is only relevant to me, because I'm the one who gets the consequences of my own actions.

The details of my life -- and how I respond to injustice -- have nothing at all to do with determining whether a given law or tax is just or unjust. Discuss the issues and not the people.

My point was not for anyone to answer the question, because I already know that you're just as totally powerless to change governmental policy as anyone else is. Just as Ayn Rand predicted in Atlas Shrugged, the moochers and the looters are running the show now. They're already the political majority. They already voted for a government that will give them things. And they're already getting exactly the government they deserve. The only thing to do is to stand clear while they get it.

Without such a tax, people would still pay for their use of the roads -- through market mechanisms. Taxation does not bring anything to the table, but it does infringe upon liberty in the way that all such coercion does.
...and no one has the power to change that. No one. Because there simply are not enough American Capitalist producers left in America to make a political majority.

Taxation is not the same thing as a voluntary payment.

And that will never change... until the government defaults.

That you pay this tax happily and think the government does a fine job with it, does not change the nature of what it is.

That's correct. The only difference between us is how I respond to it.

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That's quite right. What I do is only relevant to me, because I'm the one who gets the consequences of my own actions.

What I meant was that it is irrelevant to the topic. It has no place in the conversation, and as much relevance as my favorite kind of cheese, which is to say none.

My point was not for anyone to answer the question, because I already know that you're just as totally powerless to change governmental policy as anyone else is. Just as Ayn Rand predicted in Atlas Shrugged, the moochers and the looters are running the show now. They're already the political majority. They already voted for a government that will give them things. And they're already getting exactly the government they deserve. The only thing to do is to stand clear while they get it.

While I have no power to either single-handedly or directly change governmental policy, that doesn't mean that I do not have an effect on other people in the world, and cannot create change through, for instance, the power of persuasion.

You mention Rand above, which is fitting given both the board on which we communicate, and the fact that she caused great changes in the world, and for me personally, and possibly for you (given that you're here, on this board), through her work. While I can't point to any specific differences in today's political landscape versus how things would be had she not written her novels and nonfiction -- nor is there any way to know with precision -- I wouldn't be surprised if there were several. Reason has the power to change men's minds -- and specifically, given what we're discussing, voter's minds. Her influence may continue to grow over time, and hopefully will, and one of the end products of that influence will certainly be governmental policy.

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While I have no power to either single-handedly or directly change governmental policy, that doesn't mean that I do not have an effect on other people in the world, and cannot create change through, for instance, the power of persuasion.

Yes, of course. I totally agree. Each of us has a personal sphere of influence, and that's the best anyone can do is attend to what is within their own control and to that for which they are personally responsible. The behavior of large mobs is predictable... however, it is impossible to predict the behavior of an individual who thinks and acts for themselves.

A personal revolution is already taking place in America, but it is a silent one because it is not bound by the predictable dynamics of group behavior. It is independent individual Americans acting in their own best interest, and what is in their own best interest is also in the best interest of other Americans who share their moral values.

You mention Rand above, which is fitting given both the board on which we communicate, and the fact that she caused great changes in the world, and for me personally, and possibly for you (given that you're here, on this board), through her work.

Quite correct. Ayn Rand rocked my world.

While I can't point to any specific differences in today's political landscape versus how things would be had she not written her novels and nonfiction -- nor is there any way to know with precision -- I wouldn't be surprised if there were several.

I believe that Ayn Rand has moved enough people to be significant... but those differences will never be seen on television network news or any other public media any more than Galt's Gulch could be seen by the world, because they take place in the minds and hearts of individuals who take autonomous spontaneous action as individuals.

Reason has the power to change men's minds -- and specifically, given what we're discussing, voter's minds. Her influence may continue to grow over time, and hopefully will, and one of the end products of that influence will certainly be governmental policy.

I'm even more optimistic. I see one of the end products as being government itself... but that will only come to pass when enough Americans are living lives deserving of freedom... and only after the present system collapses of its own unproductive dead weight so as to make the way open for a better one to come.

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Because no one here can read everything written by others, your response indicates that you've not read my numerous moral condemnations of the corrupt economically toxic third party payer system of government, law, credit, insurance, education, healthcare, debt, and unions... and why it's prudent to take the necessary actions to avoid becoming contaminated.

But understand this... neither yours or my "moral objections" has one whit of power to set taxation policies. This is because the tax policy has already been determined by the political majority who happen to be parasites... and until there are more producers in America than there are moochers and public union looters who service the moocher's demands...

...that public policy of taxation will not change.

Yeah, but the action you advocate is basically pragmatism. There's a lot of extreme assertion of individual dedication and possibility to do *anything* they set their mind to. This is pragmatism in the sense of "hey, I can't do anything about it, so I'll use my bodyless mind to overcome these obstacles". To you, it is moral certainty and confidence. To me, this is total pragmatism because people are *absolutely* constrained by force, and they cannot overcome the obstacles in any reasonable way except eliminating the obstacle, which is difficult. Pragamatism I see as giving into a situation and simply to act within the constraints of a bad system.

You basically said in post 110 there is a loss of freedom because there aren't enough people that deserve freedom, which is pragmatic in the sense of "bad people will be bad, so I'll go sit in my personal Gulch until people learn!!!" Sure, living to the best of our ability is great, but it isn't room enough to say it's just one's own fault that anything negative happens. You call some things bad, but only advocate dealing with it because nothing else can be done at all.

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Yeah, but the action you advocate is basically pragmatism.

Yes. Exactly. I am completely pragmatic within the boundaries of morality. I do what works because doing what does not work is a useless waste of time. My business is doing things that work. If I do things that don't work, I don't make any money because no one pays for what does not work. But when you do things that work, people throw money at you because you make their lives better.

You basically said in post 110 there is a loss of freedom because there aren't enough people that deserve freedom,

Yes.

No one who fails to live a life deserving of freedom will ever live to enjoy freedom... but the failure of others does not preclude my own enjoyment of the freedom I deserve.

which is pragmatic in the sense of "bad people will be bad, so I'll go sit in my personal Gulch until people learn!!!"

The only purpose of a real world "Galt's Gulch" is to protect me and my loved ones from becoming collatoral damage from the evil that others do. I don't live for the sake of "bad people". I'm not their savior. They're adults who have stubbornly made their own choice and get what they deserve. My only responsibility is to be off a safe distance away when their chickens come home to roost.

Think of this as is you were living in a terrorist state. Do you live in a neighborhood among terrorists who use you as fodder to protect them from military attacks? No. You get out of there quick, and go live where the good people are.

Sure, living to the best of our ability is great, but it isn't room enough to say it's just one's own fault that anything negative happens.

It's one's own fault how they respond to anything negative that happens.

Edited by moralist
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I think that when it's considered just how taxing it can become to listen to a follower of this Jesus character continually hold forth on how supposedly "moral" they are... well, I'd have to say that there's a level of "Jesus Tax" being imposed on those of us here who want to try and use these forums to better understand and discuss the ideas of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism.  

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I think that when it's considered just how taxing it can become to listen to a follower of this Jesus character continually hold forth on how supposedly "moral" they are

What did you expect from a thread called "Jesus tax"?

 

Reading and posting in one thread does nothing to interfere with the free choice to start, read, or post in any of the other threads. Forums are not zero sum. And the discussion was only about gasoline tax for roads. Not about how taxes in general are "moral". There are certainly other immoral taxes.

... well, I'd have to say that there's a level of "Jesus Tax" being imposed on those of us here who want to try and use these forums to better understand and discuss the ideas of Ayn Rand and her philosophy of Objectivism. 

 

Absolutely nothing is preventing you from doing that.

Edited by moralist
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Because no one here can read everything written by others, your response indicates that you've not read my numerous moral condemnations of the corrupt economically toxic third party payer system of government, law, credit, insurance, education, healthcare, debt, and unions... and why it's prudent to take the necessary actions to avoid becoming contaminated.

But understand this... neither yours or my "moral objections" has one whit of power to set taxation policies. This is because the tax policy has already been determined by the political majority who happen to be parasites... and until there are more producers in America than there are moochers and public union looters who service the moocher's demands...

...that public policy of taxation will not change.

 

What is happening to the people who try to produce in society " determined by the political majority who happen to be parasites" and  endorsed by the coercive " friendly" government has been amply demonstrated by Ayn Rand in " Atlas Shrugged" via characters of Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden. If you don't accept fictional examples, think about what happened to Bill Gates.

Edited by Leonid
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What is happening to the people who try to produce in society " determined by the political majority who happen to be parasites" and  endorsed by the coercive " friendly" government has been amply demonstrated by Ayn Rand in " Atlas Shrugged" via characters of Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden. If you don't accept fictional examples, think about what happened to Bill Gates.

What happened to Bill Gates?  He ended up with lots of money,  most of which he earned honestly.  I should have as bad luck as he does.

 

ruveyn1

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What happened to Bill Gates?  He ended up with lots of money,  most of which he earned honestly.  I should have as bad luck as he does.

 

ruveyn1

 

He made a tons of money already decades ago but nevertheless continued to produce until he was pushed out of business by USA and European courts who punished him for been productive. Eventually he went on strike and now he's busy to eliminate his wealth by giving it up , distributing it to the different charity projects-pretty much like Francisco d'Anconia in AS.

Edited by Leonid
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He made a tons of money already decades ago but nevertheless continued to produce until he was pushed out of business by USA and European courts who punished him for been productive. Eventually he went on strike and now he's busy to eliminate his wealth by giving it up , distributing it to the different charity projects-pretty much like Francisco d'Anconia in AS.

Bill Gates' actions or motives are nothing like Francisco d'Anconia's. 

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Do y'all even read the quoted sections of the Bible for context around the thing you blatantly take out of context?



 
quote_icon.png Originally Posted by The Actual Verses from the Bible
42 The Lord answered, “Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom the master puts in charge of his servants to give them their food allowance at the proper time? 43 It will be good for that servant whom the master finds doing so when he returns. 44 Truly I tell you, he will put him in charge of all his possessions. 45 But suppose the servant says to himself, ‘My master is taking a long time in coming,’ and he then begins to beat the other servants, both men and women, and to eat and drink and get drunk. 46 The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of. He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the unbelievers.

47 “The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. 48 But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.

The lesson of the parable is identical to the one Obama espoused. In this case, the beating for having a lot (of info of the master's intent, in the parable) is beaten more severely than the person who sins mistakenly.

I mean, really. The NY Daily News has about the credibility as the toilet paper I wipe my ass with. Never mind the myriad of other support the Bible offers for redistribution of wealth, including the teachings of Jesus and his disciples in Acts.

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Nothing makes objective discussion difficult like a subject term. Words like fair, enough or "too much" are bandied about too casually and the treatment of these terms as fact rather than opinion is dangerous. The opinion that someone "makes too much", "doesn't pay enough taxes" or "they need to pay their fair share" are the uninformed opinions which shaped this recent election. We have indeed entered an era of the church of statism and every payday is a forced collection to subsidize the good works of this contrived theology.

I guess someone got a Word-A-Day desk calender and wanted to try it out

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What is happening to the people who try to produce in society " determined by the political majority who happen to be parasites" and  endorsed by the coercive " friendly" government has been amply demonstrated by Ayn Rand in " Atlas Shrugged" via characters of Dagny Taggart and Hank Rearden.

The real question to ask yourself is... How did Hank and Dagny resolve the situation? ...and then to do what they did. That's what I did by taking Ayn Rand's precience literally...

 

...and acting on it.

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