Building Galt's Gulch?

[Nicky]

You're right, Nicky... Ayn Rand didn't say anything directly to me because I never met her.

She never said it to anyone. She never suggested it, and she never wrote it.

(shrug...) Whenever you manifest a highly stylized literary ideal into the real world, there are always concessions to be made, and that's an insignificant one.

A private business or a house in the United States have nothing in common with Galt's Gulch. Nothing in common is a pretty serious concession.

And I read Atlas Shrugged with different eyes than you. To me it is a practical business operations manual and a useful survival guide.

A different perspective doesn't justify claiming that AS is a business operations manual. It's not. Doesn't matter what angle you look at it from, and who's eyes you use, it's still not. Atlas Shrugged is a dystopian science fiction novel, and a vehicle for a set of abstract philosophical principles knows as Objectivism.

Building a Galt's Gulch because Atlas Shrugged has one is like preparing for the zombie apocalypse after watching The Walking Dead.

*mod note* Split from abortion thread - Eiuol

Edited February 1, 2013 by Eiuol

[moralist]

She never said it to anyone. She never suggested it, and she never wrote it.

Each person who reads her words freely chooses to take from them what is useful to them. I found what she wrote to be a precious map of valuable principles that leads vast hidden treasures... and the adventure of a lifetime awaits anyone who chooses to follow it.

A private business or a house in the United States have nothing in common with Galt's Gulch. Nothing in common is a pretty serious concession.

You are free to hold that opinion... just as I am free to choose how my actions express a metaphor in the real world.

A different perspective doesn't justify claiming that AS is a business operations manual. It's not. Doesn't matter what angle you look at it from, and who's eyes you use, it's still not.

I agree that it's not for you... but it is for me.

Atlas Shrugged is a dystopian science fiction novel, and a vehicle for a set of abstract philosophical principles knows as Objectivism.

That's absolutely true, Nicky... and each person is totally free in how they choose to act on those abstract philosophical principles to make them real in their own lives.

Building a Galt's Gulch because Atlas Shrugged has one is like preparing for the zombie apocalypse after watching The Walking Dead.

I don't watch television.

Edited January 31, 2013 by moralist

[Nicky]

Each person who reads her words freely chooses to take from them what is useful to them....

That's absolutely true, Nicky...and each person is totally free in how they choose to act on those abstract philosophical principles to make them real in their own lives.

You are free to hold that opinion...

Yes, everybody's free. But not everybody's right. Some people are wrong. In this case, it's whoever thinks that Atlas Shrugged is an instruction manual for building a hideaway from the government.

[moralist]

Yes, everybody's free. But not everybody's right. Some people are wrong. In this case, it's whoever thinks that Atlas Shrugged is an instruction manual for building a hideaway from the government.

That's a strange belief to hold... when every businessman knows full well that it is impossible to hide from the government. Galt's Gulch as I interpret the metaphor, is a place of safety on the outer edge of civilisation, in contrast to being encapsulated by heavily populated urban centers with all of their social and economic issues. On the outer edge there is far more freedom of action. That you feel this is wrong is not my concern, as each of us gets what we deserve as the consequences of our own actions. I'm satisfied with the consequences I've set into motion and fully accept them as my own personal responsibility.

Edited February 1, 2013 by moralist

[ruveyn1]

That's a strange belief to hold... when every businessman knows full well that it is impossible to hide from the government. Galt's Gulch as I interpret the metaphor, is a place of safety on the outer edge of civilisation, in contrast to being encapsulated by heavily populated urban centers with all of their social and economic issues. On the outer edge there is far more freedom of action. That you feel this is wrong is not my concern, as each of us gets what we deserve as the consequences of our own actions. I'm satisfied with the consequences I've set into motion and fully accept them as my own personal responsibility.

Having an electronic invisibility cloak or a force field makes it even safer. By the way, this scenario could not obtain in an age of spy satellites. Even John Galt could not prevent light from passing through cold still air at night.

ruveyn1

[moralist]

Having an electronic invisibility cloak or a force field makes it even safer. By the way, this scenario could not obtain in an age of spy satellites. Even John Galt could not prevent light from passing through cold still air at night.

ruveyn1

That's true... even Google Earth sees where almost everyone lives.

[Nicky]

Galt's Gulch as I interpret the metaphor

It's not a metaphor.

[moralist]

It's not a metaphor.

One synonym for metaphor is symbol. For me, Galt's Gulch is more than just a mythical place in a novel, it is also a symbol for a way of living. In Galt's Gulch certain protocols were observed, and I really like that idea so I make it a reality in my own life.

I fully understand that you totally disagree with this approach, and am ok with your expressions of it.

Edited February 2, 2013 by moralist

[Nicky]

One synonym for metaphor is symbol.

It is not.

[moralist]

It is not.

It is so.

(ok, your turn... )

(thesaurus.com)

Main Entry:

metaphor [met-uh-fawr, -fer] Show Spelled Part of Speech: noun Definition: figure of speech, implied comparison Synonyms: allegory, analogy, emblem, hope, image, metonymy, personification, similitude, symbol, trope

Edited February 5, 2013 by moralist

[volco]

Has anyone else thought of any comparison or saw some similitude between the concept of Mulligan Valley (Galt's Gulch) and Plato's Topos Uranos? or More's Utopia Island?

Ayn Rand did say that something like described in the novel should only take place when and if the last and most fundamental of our liberties is taken away.

And even at that moment Gulching seems to be temporary in between societal collapse and its rebuilding, not an end in itself except like a recurring vacation spot, like The Hamptons or that golf course in Bermuda.

No, Ayn Rand used the concept of the Gulch as a literary device to achieve her literary goals. Whatever inspiration may come from there is not Ayn Rand's responsibility.

One interesting inspiration (the cloak being the sea surface) is the concept of Seasteading which is independent from Objectivism (but not contradictory to it).

Any mighty fortress in the Rockies can only have disastrous connotations of a bulwark never failing...

[ruveyn1]

Has anyone else thought of any comparison or saw some similitude between the concept of Mulligan Valley (Galt's Gulch) and Plato's Topos Uranos? or More's Utopia Island?

Ayn Rand did say that something like described in the novel should only take place when and if the last and most fundamental of our liberties is taken away.

And even at that moment Gulching seems to be temporary in between societal collapse and its rebuilding, not an end in itself except like a recurring vacation spot, like The Hamptons or that golf course in Bermuda.

No, Ayn Rand used the concept of the Gulch as a literary device to achieve her literary goals. Whatever inspiration may come from there is not Ayn Rand's responsibility.

One interesting inspiration (the cloak being the sea surface) is the concept of Seasteading which is independent from Objectivism (but not contradictory to it).

Any mighty fortress in the Rockies can only have disastrous connotations of a bulwark never failing...

The problem with colonies of any kind, be they on the land, under the sea or in the air is the problem of -critical mass-. One needs a sufficient number of people with a proper mix and temperments and skills to forge a functioning self-sufficient community. Even the Galt's Gulch of AS did not quite make it. They still needed to bring in material from the outside to continue to function.

It is not clear that a group of dissident folk could find someplace on, in, or under earth/sea to make a clean break with the larger society with which they wish to part company. It is a nice, fine romantic notion but it exists in stories like More's Utopia or in AS.

ruveyn1

[Nicky]

It is so.

(ok, your turn... )

(thesaurus.com)

Main Entry:

metaphor [met-uh-fawr, -fer] Show Spelled Part of Speech: noun Definition: figure of speech, implied comparison Synonyms: allegory, analogy, emblem, hope, image, metonymy, personification, similitude, symbol, trope

That's nonsense. Try using pretty much any of those "synonyms" instead of metaphor in a fifth grade English class, see how long it takes you to flunk.

Just out of curiosity, what grade did you make it to in school?

Edited February 7, 2013 by Nicky

[Reidy]

Rand herself is one who was aware of the similarities to Plato and More. She said in her early 60s show on the Columbia University radio station that she undertook to write a utopia deliberately, in part, in order to take it away from its totalitarian tradition.

Edited February 7, 2013 by Reidy

[moralist]

Ayn Rand did say that something like described in the novel should only take place when and if the last and most fundamental of our liberties is taken away.

When people have become so irresponsible that they forfeit the last of their freedoms to the government... it would already be too late to create a Galt's Gulch. You want to build an ark is while the Sun is still shining and not when the rain falls.

And even at that moment Gulching seems to be temporary in between societal collapse and its rebuilding, not an end in itself except like a recurring vacation spot, like The Hamptons or that golf course in Bermuda.

Yes. No flood is permanent. The waters will always eventually recede. Concerning collapse, there is another aspect as well as social... economic. For that, preparing a financial Galt's Gulch in advance could be prudent action to take.

No, Ayn Rand used the concept of the Gulch as a literary device to achieve her literary goals. Whatever inspiration may come from there is not Ayn Rand's responsibility.

Good point... and one form of spontaneous creativity is to adapt something to an unintended purpose through thinking and acting "outside the box". In the long run it's not a bad idea to learn how to live "outside the box" while it's easy to do. In the throes of a crisis is too late.

[volco]

Moralist, and Ruveyn, I completely agree with both and with the points and logic above.

Reidy's comment is the most helpful still, otherwise the idea of Platonic World in Ayn Rand's corpus would seem out of place, or even, if misread, contradictory.

I agree of course that we should create such an ark (s) and that the project should double as a financial haven in 'peacetime' and personally learn to live independently (vessels, particuarly sailboats, but maybe wil's concrete submarines too, are the only situation that would make sense to me), but I still feel more strongly that living internationally and being an expat, living under another government's laws, is the freest during the era of distribution and interconnection.

[My 99 are free]

You guys assume this thing isn't highly dangerous.

Also, how would we feel if the ark is actually made and none of us are on it?  I think these "ark"s have been made over the centuries and no one really knows about them.  Either way, I wouldn't fit in in the gulch.  I wouldn't want to go there.  I'm an irrationalist; a feelings man.  Nobody in the galt's gulch of the book have much feelings at all. 

Edited February 8, 2013 by My 99 are free

[My 99 are free]

When people have become so irresponsible that they forfeit the last of their freedoms to the government... it would already be too late to create a Galt's Gulch. You want to build an ark is while the Sun is still shining and not when the rain falls.

 

First of all, galt made the sky fall.  He made it happen.  Let's say he did.  Are one of you going to make the government of the United States of America collapse so you can have a safe haven?  Galt would have said for the sentence preceding this "Are one of you going to make the government fall?" This is a truly enjoyable prospect.

Now let's say he didn't cause it.  You truly underestimate the people who created galt's gulch.  These are the people you don't know about, who spend their time in labs, not lectures, on physics.  The ones who scoff because science as "we" know it isn't even close.  These are the guys there are 200 of in the united states.  You talk about the 1%?  It's less than the 1% of that.  And I'm not talking about money, I'm talking about brains.  It also seems like I am talking with abandon.

Now, to talk about Rand's responsibility.  Let's say you meet Galt and he just told you what happened at this car plant.  Do you give him the book?  Let's say he won't let you in.  Do you still?  Is it your responsibility either to tell him or not to tell him? 

Edited February 8, 2013 by My 99 are free

[moralist]

 

 

I couldn't care less about the government because I've already secured a safe haven. To the degree that you can render the government irrelevant to your own quality of life, that is the degree you can enjoy the freedom for which you earned the right to deserve.

 

Galt would have said for the sentence preceding this "Are one of you going to make the government fall?" This is a truly enjoyable prospect.

 

Yes it is... and you can make government fall in your own life simply by not needing it to give you things at the expense of others.

 

 

 

Now let's say he didn't cause it.  You truly underestimate the people who created galt's gulch.  These are the people you don't know about, who spend their time in labs, not lectures, on physics.  The ones who scoff because science as "we" know it isn't even close.  These are the guys there are 200 of in the united states.  You talk about the 1%?  It's less than the 1% of that.  And I'm not talking about money, I'm talking about brains.  It also seems like I am talking with abandon.

 

I think its fun to muse about possibilities. And it's true... the people who secure their freedom, you will never see on TV network news. They are private American citizens operating within the Capitalist private sector.

 

 

 

 

Now, to talk about Rand's responsibility.  Let's say you meet Galt and he just told you what happened at this car plant.  Do you give him the book?  Let's say he won't let you in.  Do you still?  Is it your responsibility either to tell him or not to tell him? 

 

Galt already knows.

Edited February 8, 2013 by moralist