Immoral to lie about criminal history

[cliveandrews]

I have a misdemeanor criminal conviction from five years ago. Due to the state government's sloppy record keeping, it apparently does not show up on a state background check (the record can apparently be found in the municipal court in which the conviction occurred). Therefore it is highly likely that I could get away with lying about it when applying for employment. It is a conviction for something that should not be against the law, but it could be prohibitive when applying for a certain type of job. How should I proceed?

[Nicky]

You should do whatever you think is best for your life. That (no matter what the outcome in this particular case) will make you much more resembling an Objectivist than asking us what to do, and then doing as told.

 

Asking someone what the right thing is in concrete situations, and then following their instructions, doesn't make one an Objectivist, or moral. Not even if all the instructions are 100% what an Objectivist would do.

 

I would even go a step further than that, and state that, unless one is an actual Objectivist (someone who understands and embraces the philosophy, in all aspects of his life), just going through the paces acting like an Objectivist in a social context probably isn't going to work out well. There are things Ayn Rand's heroes do that wouldn't work out for someone who isn't like Ayn Rand's heroes.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm not suggesting that you be dishonest. But I am suggesting that, instead of picking this one thing to follow Objectivism on, you should focus your efforts on becoming a man who can afford and in fact thrive on the kind of honesty that involves telling the world "Sure, I have a criminal record, but here's what I can do and what I've done lately. This is who I am, take it or leave it.". 

[cliveandrews]

Thank you for the advice. Instead of wanting specific instructions, what I really mean is that I want to know what principle I should go by.

[Dormin111]

I agree with Nicky but I caution him not to oversell his point. There is nothing wrong with seeking moral guidance from like minded individuals. As long as you can maintain your phychological independence, asking others for ethical help can be a great benefit to your life.

[JASKN]

Depends what is at risk, how badly you need the job, how long you plan to stay there, what your own honest judgement is about the offense and a company's possible response to it, does it factor in heavily to a goal of yours, will it tarnish your reputation in any meaningful way, etc. In general it is probably best to be honest with others, not always, but you'll have to decide yourself.

[mdegges]

Can't most places fire you on the spot if they find out you lied on your application?

I wouldn't want that hanging over my head.

[intellectualammo]

One guy lied on his and he had a record with "assault with a deadly weapon". He was promptly fired. I think they do two background checks one took longer to come back or something, I only heard this through gossip.

They say saying that you had a record doesn't automatically disqualify you from a job. Them finding out you lied about it means you are a liar and can't be trusted and on the application don't you sign that everything you said was true?

If I was you, I'd tell the truth.

My record is pretty clean, never been convicted, but I did have an EPFA filed against me by my ex-wife. When we went to court, she dropped the charges/case dismissed kind of thing. I asked my lawyer if I had a record, he said No, but that it still can be found out. I don't have to say anything on applications because I wasn't convicted of any crime.

Also, if you are found out that you lied, you may face legal trouble over that from the employer or governemnt, I'd look into that because I'm not sure.

Edited April 17, 2013 by intellectualammo

[intellectualammo]

Some things may come up later, like if you want to sue your employer:

http://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/dont-lie-job-application-29878.html

[JASKN]

Can't most places fire you on the spot if they find out you lied on your application?

I wouldn't want that hanging over my head.

If an employer needs a job filled that is undesirable enough, badly enough, and if you are a good enough worker, they are usually very loose in their requirements for getting rid of you. Conversely, if you don't bring much value, any little thing will push you down the steep hill toward unemployment.

[Nicky]

Thank you for the advice. Instead of wanting specific instructions, what I really mean is that I want to know what principle I should go by.

The principle is that honesty is a virtue. I thought a little more about how I phrased my post, I think I want to rephrase it a little. 

 

Basically, what I am suggesting is that you try out honesty, understand how and why it works (by experiencing it, in various relationships with people you trust or at least expect to appreciate it rather than with strangers). In my experience, it's best to start with your closest friends. When you do, and see why it works, only then start fully staking your livelihood on this radical new method of dealing with everyone in the world. 

 

In other words, seek progress, not instant perfection. And don't expect miracles: understanding a philosophy takes a while too, but internalizing it takes much, much more: many years of slow, constant progress towards your goal. Or so I've been told, I'm not there either.

 

However, in the meantime, you also shouldn't stake your career on a lie. That's not gonna work out long term, especially since there's very little leeway in later on correcting yourself. You'll just get discovered and fired, lose all that hard work. But if it's a temporary job, a learning opportunity, etc. , then it's no big deal. It's not like you're going to Hell for all eternity because you sinned. The only sin you can commit is against your rational mind: accepting something as a given without good reason.

 

(please keep in mind that I'm using "you", but I don't know you: I'm just talking to a generic "you", and making some assumptions about this "you" such as that he's neither honest on principle nor a regular liar - he's like most people I come across in my life: someone who tries to do what's best in every situation, sometimes gets it right, sometimes not)

 

[edit]

I just thought of an example of "internalizing" honesty. Let's say someone would get into the habit of trying to impress people by altering their own reality just a little bit. Not crazy sociopath modifications, but just lying slightly upwards about an achievement, knowledge, experience, to someone new they meet, and getting away with it (as one usually does, since very few people ever bother looking into minor claims). 

 

This of course works, most of the time. People buy into it, treat you better because of it. But the cost is in confidence (self esteem). Just because people believe you are a better person, doesn't mean you have the confidence of this better person. And, while people rarely care about the truth enough to notice tiny little lies, they do eventually take note of the absence of the kind of confidence telling the truth, and telling it on principle, brings. In the long run, that kind of quiet confidence amounts to much more respect and appreciation from others than the fake achievements or knowledge. That confidence appears at the "internalizing" stage, after the "understanding the principle" stage.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Nicky