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How does one apply O'ism to the Iraq War?

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Or perhaps their return. A polarized America and anti-Americanistic Europe doesn't help much either in effacing liberalism a.k.a hidden Communism.

Liberalism and scocialism as "Hidden communism" I like that.

I think I may see the recent election as much more significant than you do. It truly was a civil war. And just as slavery didn't come back after the first civil war; liberalism will never enjoy the power it once did ever again after this second.

I see a real break with the, now seemingly very old, postmodern era. Man can take pride in himself again. Reason and Science get us further than the glorification of the irrational (postmodern). And the mainstream sees this more and more in the very concrete products of technology.

Unfortunately religion was not defeated, but some would even say exhonerated in a way, in this last showdown. But I see it will be a long time yet before we will be able to drop this need for the mystical. It's perfectly understandable. Death and death anxiety are just too awful to face up to without it, that is, without some bromide. Objectivism itself may even be such a bromide, (like anything else it can be embraced as a religion) but with an important difference--it also happens to be headed in the right direction, that is, in the direction of reason as the only proper tool to deal with reality, and our only real hope to a blindingly brighter future (an age of light) in which solutions to all problems, not excluding death, can be found. And as I said, people will move ineluctably in this direction more and more simply because of the concrete benifits of this world view. Objectivism is the rigorous spelling out of this world view.

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Dishonesty is "knowingly" telling a lie.

This is not an essentialized definition of dishonesty, as the term is used in Objectivism. Lying to others is only one manifestation (though a very common one) of dishonesty. The latter, fundamentally, means evading facts of reality.

The issue of honesty and dishonesty is fundamentally an issue of individual morality. See "Galt's Speech," Atlas Shrugged (excerpted in "Honesty," The Ayn Rand Lexicon, p. 204): "Honesty is the recognition of the fact that the unreal is unreal and can have no value ...." The remainder of that sentence then applies the individual's relationship to reality to the issue of telling others the truth or lies. (See also the ARL article on "Evasion.")

So, defining "dishonesty" as knowingly telling a lie is mistaken. Rather, lying is knowingly telling a falsehood. Whether the lie is good or bad depends on the context.

Your (and the left's) use of the term "misleading", however, is truly "intentionally" misleading. This is pure political slight-of-hand, specifically through equivocation.
You have accused Thesweetscience of lying -- of being intentionally misleading. This is an extraordinary charge. What is your evidence for this charge?

You libs ...

What is your evidence for saying Thesweetscience is a liberal, that is, "moderate" leftist? If you have no evidence, please withdraw your statement.

Furthermore the purpose of this thread is not to rehash the arguments over the proper form of a War on Terrorism. It is to discuss ways one can use particulars from life today to test or illustrate philosophical principles. What contribution, if any, do you have to offer on this subject?

Edited by BurgessLau
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And I'm done with this thread.

This is what you said earlier. Yet you have posted again in this thread. Are you offering this as an example of honesty or dishonesty applied socially? Did you intentionally mislead your readers?

Further, what do your posts have to do with the purpose of this thread, to discuss principles and methods for learning Objectivism by trying to apply it to particulars in one's life?

CAUTION: Further off-topic posts will be deleted and formal warnings issued (see Forum Rules, 2.4).

Edited by BurgessLau
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Or perhaps their return. A polarized America and anti-Americanistic Europe doesn't help much either in effacing liberalism a.k.a hidden Communism.

Tommy, what does your comment have to do with the main point of this thread, which is to learn principles and methods from trying to apply a newly-learned philosophy to current events, in one form or another. Remember, the purpose of this thread is not to rehash the issues of the war -- or the last U. S. election.

CAUTION: Further off-topic posts will be deleted and formal warnings issued (see Forum Rules, 2.4).

Edited by BurgessLau
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Here are links to the relevant topics for Bobby I found through a search:

Redfarmer, thank you very much. These links should keep Bobby (Thesweetscience) busy for a long time. After he has read through them perhaps he might try participating in one of them, on particular points of philosophy.

For my benefit (my search skills are poor) and for the benefit of other new members of OO besides Bobby, how did you go about your search? For example, what search terms did you use?

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Redfarmer, thank you very much. These links should keep Bobby (Thesweetscience) busy for a long time. After he has read through them perhaps he might try participating in one of them, on particular points of philosophy.

For my benefit (my search skills are poor) and for the benefit of other new members of OO besides Bobby, how did you go about your search? For example, what search terms did you use?

I just scrolled down into the various topics. It did not occur to me to do a "search" I was unfamiliar with that feature. I will be using it often from now on.

Thanks again

Bobby

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Objectivism is a philosophy of reason and logic. In order to better understand and apply it, you need to respect that. You should have a grounding in logic.

This is what I suggest all newcomers to Objectivism do: First, read Ayn Rand's books. But when you find yourself getting puzzled, take a logical approach to your confusions. Step back and look at reality. Ask yourself simple, fundamental questions and honestly think about them. Go through a range of concretes that deal with your problem. Consider them. Abstract from them. Form only rock-solid conclusions. Don't take things on faith, but don't be ridiculously skeptical, either. Have confidence in your perception. And at some point, make a study of logic.

Objectivism is also a philosophy originally written in the English language. I suggest newcomers also have a good grasp of English and take language and definitions seriously.

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Redfarmer, thank you very much. These links should keep Bobby (Thesweetscience) busy for a long time. After he has read through them perhaps he might try participating in one of them, on particular points of philosophy.

For my benefit (my search skills are poor) and for the benefit of other new members of OO besides Bobby, how did you go about your search? For example, what search terms did you use?

Well, I tried searching for "WMD" first since I knew there was a topic with that in the topic (I started it about 10 months ago). That turned out to be a more popular term than I bargained for, though, so I simply searched for "Iraq" and pulled out the relevant posts from the rest which simply mentioned Iraq.

P.S. It's off topic (but somewhat relative to this topic) but I wanted to thank you for your frequent recommendation of The Ayn Rand Lexicon in various threads. I bought it a couple of weeks ago and it's the reference book I've been using more than any others. It's a great book for those of us fairly new to the philosophy to have!

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P.S. It's off topic (but somewhat relative to this topic) but I wanted to thank you for your frequent recommendation of The Ayn Rand Lexicon in various threads. I bought it a couple of weeks ago and it's the reference book I've been using more than any others. It's a great book for those of us fairly new to the philosophy to have!

You are welcome. But, rather than being off-topic, I think you are right on target. Part of the topic here is how to learn from applying philosophy to particular examples in our lives. In that process, many questions should come up. The Ayn Rand Lexicon is a great resource for starting to look for answers about Objectivism, that is, about the philosophical side of the application. Its excerpts lead a serious student of Objectivism to other, longer works. Its cross-references help in the process of integration of knowledge.

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First, I must do a little bussing: It is my understanding that Miss Rand objected to the US making an ally of the USSR, not the war. She saw them as the enemy as much as Hitler and Tojo. History proved her right. We were at war with the Soviets until the 80's. (And when you hear it called "cold," remember the mound of corpses piled up in its name.)

I first began watching what was happening in Muslim societies all over the world, looking for writings from different prominent Muslims, and studying Islamic and Arab history after the Iranian revolution. I learned that the active form of radicalism that we are now dealing with began with the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt in the 50's. (The fundamental problems stretch throughout history, of course.) As I studied, and as our problems with this part of the world grew, I knew we would have to turn and face them sooner or later.

The point I am making is that I didn't come to any of my conclusions about the validity of this war by listening to the politicians or the myopic mainstream media. You should never consider what you hear from those quarters to be facts; you only get bits and pieces, little factoids which are seldom put into any kind of context. As such they may play a part in your overall assessment of a situation, but they constitute only a part the facts of reality with which you ought to be dealing.

An example of this can be found in this last week's headlines regarding Abbas and the Palestinian "elections." I've had the feeling all week that I'm replaying Oslo. Abbas is a clone of Arafat, his designated heir, yet everyone from the president to the media has been hailing him as the latest hope of that insidious "road-map" that constitutes the "peace-process" between Israel and Palestine. The so-called elections were in the mold of Soviet elections -- or Iraqi elections under Saddam. We've learned nothing. I know this because I read what the Palestinians and the Arabs say among themselves. I read their editorials, and statements made to the people, as opposed to what is said for the western press. If you do this, you will hear two very different things. If you want an example of dishonesty as it is used in the Objectivist lexicon, here it is all wrapped up with a bow. It is a study in the mass evasion of reality.

No matter what the problem you are addressing is, you must first look at reality, then apply your philosophy and your reason. Reality always comes first (which is why metaphysics preceeds epistomology).

(As an aside: I had a bit of a problem with "apply your philosophy and your reason." One must apply the proper reasoning to any thought. Reason without the proper philosophical underpinnings, however, can lead you astray just as surely as can faith. Even knowing the proper methods of logic won't protect you if you are operating on an improper premise. So, I wrote that sentence to read "your philosophy and your reason.)

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