undefined emotions

[LoBagola]

What are they? They are often mentioned in Rand's texts.

 

Are they emotions backed by a thought process you refuse to identify? (1)

Are they emotions backed by an undefined thought process? e.g. "god exists" where "god" is undefined (2)

Are they emotions backed by not yet validated thought processes? e.g. "I need to be a genius to be happy" (3)

Are they emotions whose thought process is so deep you are unable to identify? (4)

Are they emotions you escape through drugs, shopping, partying? (5)

Are they emotions you cannot name ? (6) 

 

I don't think (6) cannot be the case as who is unable to recognize their own emotions? You know whether your sad, angry or happy; it's self evident.

 

I think (2) and (3) are by far my biggest issues. I'm amazed at the amount of toxic waste that I've managed to imprint into my subconscious over my life. 

 

If anyone has anything at all to add on to this topic, particularly anything related at all to (2) or (3) I'd be very interested! You may PM me too.

Edited September 14, 2013 by LoBagola

[softwareNerd]

What are they? They are often mentioned in Rand's texts.

A couple of quotes would help. I search the texts, and couldn't find "undefined" or "defined" near "emotion". I did find these:

 

What should I do? Here, they are not too sure—but the usual answer is: whatever everybody does. The only trouble seems to be that they are not very active, not very confident, not very happy—and they experience, at times, a causeless fear and an undefined guilt, which they cannot explain or get rid of  (emphasis added. Essay: Philosophy Who Needs It)

 

 

Yet this is the view with <tf_xi>  which—in various degrees of longing, wistfulness, passion and agonized confusion—the best of mankind's youth start out in life. It is not even a view, for most of them, but a foggy, groping, undefined sense made of raw pain and incommunicable happiness. (emphasis added. Fountainhead. Intro to 25th anniversary edition)

 

 

It is only by accepting "man's life" as one's primary and by pursuing the rational values it requires that one can achieve happiness—not by taking "happiness" as some undefined, irreducible primary and then attempting to live by its guidance. (emphasis added. "The Objectivist Ethics")

 

 

Are these the types of examples you are talking about? 

[A is A]

What are they? They are often mentioned in Rand's texts.

How about some citations?

 

Are they emotions backed by a thought process you refuse to identify? (1)

Are they emotions backed by an undefined thought process? e.g. "god exists" where "god" is undefined (2)

Are they emotions backed by not yet validated thought processes? e.g. "I need to be a genius to be happy" (3)

Are they emotions whose thought process is so deep you are unable to identify? (4)

Are they emotions you escape through drugs, shopping, partying? (5)

Are they emotions you cannot name ? (6)

 

How about some examples?

I don't think (6) cannot be the case as who is unable to recognize their own emotions? You know whether your sad, angry or happy; it's self evident.

 

I think (2) and (3) are by far my biggest issues. I'm amazed at the amount of toxic waste that I've managed to imprint into my subconscious over my life. 

 

If anyone has anything at all to add on to this topic, particularly anything related at all to (2) or (3) I'd be very interested! You may PM me too.

Recognizing emotions is not self evident. They are about as far from being self-evident as anything is. Emotions are automatic responses associated with values that affect you. Which values they are have to be learned and identified by thinking and experience. The experience of an emotion simply tells you that something makes you feel something. And even that has to be learned and conceptually grasped.

[LoBagola]

What should I do? Here, they are not too sure—but the usual answer is: whatever everybody does. The only trouble seems to be that they are not very active, not very confident, not very happy—and they experience, at times, a causeless fear and an undefined guilt, which they cannot explain or get rid of  (emphasis added. Essay: Philosophy Who Needs It)

 

Yes. This and the second quote on an "undefined sense...". 

[A is A]

Yes. This and the second quote on an "undefined sense...".

In the sentence you provided, Rand is stating that the source of the emotion is not identified or named.  It is often like anxiety or depression, where the source of the emotion cannot be identified.  It cannot be named because the method of thinking about emotions has been corrupted by their teachers asserting that thinking is not something required.  A "causeless fear and an undefined guilt" clearly mean that one is experiencing fear and guilt, but the source, the values and thinking to identify the values, has not been identified.  

[LoBagola]

Thanks A is A. I understand. . I was under the impression that introspection is not that difficult; I haven't studied any formal psychology but have started practicing it with some success. When I feel an emotion there will usually just be a thought accompanying it and if there isn't one immediately there I can dig around and start piling up things that have been weighing on me that would contribute. E.g. work I need to get done when I feel anxiety.  Even before I was exposed to philosophy I was aware to some extent that if I felt dread or fear it was because .... insert reason here. Although, I can't remember too well and I may not have made the connection between thought and emotion. It's possible I thought my thoughts were rationalizations of the emotions and that the emotions were independently determined.

[A is A]

Most of the time, there is not a single thought accompanying an emotion.  Emotions are automatic responses. There typically is a value context associated with emotions. That context is often not readily available to one's conscious awareness, depending upon the complexity of the values involved.  When conflicting values or contradictory values are involved, it may take months to years to identify the values involved.  The most important part of introspection is the grasp that thinking about one's emotions and values is necessary to figure out the relationships.

[Eiuol]

 Although, I can't remember too well and I may not have made the connection between thought and emotion. It's possible I thought my thoughts were rationalizations of the emotions and that the emotions were independently determined.

I don't think it's uncommon to associate an emotion and a thought because an event and an emotion happen at the same time, but that doesn't mean the event caused the emotion. It's possible that the emotion is lingering from something else entirely, or that the emotion and thought only incidentally occur at the same time. For example, you might be taking a test, and are feeling anxious. You are also thinking that the test is going to be difficult. You might say you are anxious because you think the test is difficult. But perhaps you are only anxious because you had an argument with your friend the day before yet for whatever reason didn't feel anxious at the time. So, it's important to distinguish thoughts from emotion, just in case you are treating the two as the same (I used to call some thoughts emotions, meaning I'd treat something as an emotion when it never was). You might say thinking the test is hard is anxiety. Emotions aren't thoughts, they're a feeling, like "I'm breathing faster than normal and it feels like a weight dragging me". To figure out the cause is more than determining the thoughts you have at the same time.

 

Introspection is not easy at all, it takes a lot of practice to be objective about causes. Introspection or emotional skills are rarely taught, and they should be. Not that it's taught badly or in a corrupted way, but it's barely taught at all, except in some schools.

[LoBagola]

You are also thinking that the test is goingto be difficult. You might say you are anxious because you think the test is difficult. But perhaps you are only anxious because you had an argument with your friend the day before yet for whatever reason didn't feel anxious at the time. 

 

Wow ok. This is exactly what I'm doing. I'll purchase that introspection course of ARI.

 

The task of working on myself (through fixing up a conceptual chaos) is momentous;every single thing I'd like to work on requires me to build up my philosophy first. I went from just a casual read of AS to concentrating on epistemology and learning grammar. If one cannot say or validate to himself with absolute conviction that he has volition or that there is no "spiritual realm" the impacts on the rest of one's life are profound, but often undetected. 

[happiness]

I have experienced #4. Introspecting and relating your thoughts to reality can be hard.

[LoBagola]

I just re-read Rand's "philosophy who needs it" and I'm wondering about the following:

 

But the principles you accept (consciously or subconsciously) may clash with or contradict one another; they, too, have to be integrated. What integrates them? Philosophy. A philosophic system is an integrated view of existence. As a human being, you have no choice about the fact that you need a philosophy. Your only choice is whether you define your philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation--or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified wishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a ball and chain in the place where your mind's wings should have grown.

 

How can a contradiction be undefined? If you hold two contradictory ideas they would not be ideas if they weren't defined. Didn't Rand mean unidentified or ignored contradictions?

 

Undigest slogans means what? I'm thinking phrases which somehow one comes to accepts but never thinks about. How do these phrases then dictate our actions? Do we start associating concretes to those phrases that suit whatever emotion they and the phrase arouses?

 

Unidentified wishes. I'm confused by this. I'm guessing this may refer to some end result of a subconscious philosophy? but then why is that considered a wish?