LoBagola Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 “You know, it’s such a peculiar thing—our idea of mankind in general. We all have a sort of vague, glowing picture when we say that, something solemn, big and important. But actually all we know of it is the people we meet in our lifetime. Look at them. Do you know any you’d feel big and solemn about? There’s nothing but housewives haggling at pushcarts, drooling brats who write dirty words on the sidewalks, and drunken debutantes. Or their spiritual equivalent. As a matter of fact, one can feel some respect for people when they suffer. They have a certain dignity. But have you ever looked at them when they’re enjoying themselves? That’s when you see the truth. Look at those who spend the money they’ve slaved for—at amusement parks and side shows. Look at those who’re rich and have the whole world open to them. Observe what they pick out for enjoyment. Watch them in the smarter speak-easies. That’s your mankind in general. I don’t want to touch it.” Dominique Francon, the Fountainhead, Page 143 I understand that the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are trying to contrast moral perfection vs degeneracy through illustration, but I'm curious if Rand felt this way about the men around her? If you do? I look around and see a lot of really hard working people doing well within the context of their knowledge. The fact that someone supports all kinds of welfare programs and states to believes in altruism doesn't mean they're evil. I remember a friend once told me rich people should pay to help the poor and that actually hurt me, worried me about mankind in general and made me angry. I felt like I was being attacked, that everything good was being attacked but within the context of her knowledge and conceptual development maybe it wasn't evil. I'm thinking to when I first read OPAR and it took me over a month to accept the identity axiom. I was in such a state of mental confusion that I'd ask "well how do I actually know a leaf can't be red and green at the same time? sure I see that it is, but how do I know that it actually is?". If it takes me over a month of study to understand that then how can we call anyone else evil when they support all kinds of ideas which could be considered evil, e.g. altruism. I hear so many irrational things every day and it used to drive me nuts but now I'm thinking there's so much room for real human error which I never gave much thought. I used to hate the common saying "don't judge" (in the non-religious context) - and I still do. But now I'm thinking it came about because we have all these arbitrary standards that make no sense and it is actually extremely difficult to evaluate the entire moral character of a man. What is your view on the moral character of mankind in general and the men and women around your life (not necessarily in your life)? softwareNerd 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleph_1 Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) I cannot answer how AR felt about the men around her, but it may be informative to consider her experience in Soviet Russia. That experience may have colored her view toward the "common man" whose innocent misconceptions led to true horror. Concerning error, consider that when you drive, many of the errors that you make do not result in accidents. Even the roads are forgiving. Edited November 15, 2013 by aleph_1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesscottbooks Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 "Concerning error, consider that when you drive, many of the errors that you make do not result in accidents. Even the roads are forgiving." I like that. I was told by a devoubt Bapist, in refernce to Hurricane Katrina, It missed us and hit them because we are better people than those sinners. To me that answers your question... Holier that though people make off hte cuff remarks like that without thinking hey people died there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil's Advocate Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 The moral character of mankind in general is reflected by the degree to which one is held accountable to the same ethical expectations placed on others; justice being corrupted by ethical disparity. Put another way, the ability to err is inherent to fallible beings, so any measure of goodness depends on ethical reciprocity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reidy Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 #1 seems to assume that Dominique is a spokesman for the author. She isn't. Her chronic bitterness, until Roark's acquittal, is in contrast to what Rand thinks appropriate and embodies in Roark. If this were Rand's opinion and not merely a character's, she would have given the speech to Roark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aleph_1 Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 What is your view on the moral character of mankind in general and the men and women around your life (not necessarily in your life)? I know a lot of highly intelligent sincere people who, like me, are seeking truth. Despite our common goal, we have come to very divergent opinions on issues like God and government, etc. These people, who are productive and self-reliant, I do not have a problem with. On the other hand, I know a lot of "takers"--people who seek a free-ride off of others. I have been assaulted, surrounded by a violent gang twice, and the victim of arson by a man who also committed suicide on my property. I have had my house run into by a car, my parked car demolished by someone on drugs, my rental properties vandalized, etc. It is difficult to judge people and what they will do, especially those who sit behind a desk while advocating or acquiescing to horrors. I guess I would say that it is not possible to remark generally on men and women concerning moral character except possibly by monuments. Some US national monuments proclaim to represent moral virtues but are instead monuments to our moral vices--the National WWI monument in Kansas City, MO. On the other hand, there are many that stand for true virtues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrictlyLogical Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) You cannot blame a child for not knowing what he or she is doing is "bad". Even once you explain to a child THAT something is bad and also WHY it is bad .. perhaps you still can't blame them... they are not adults. If an adult, at first not knowing something is wrong, after being told that something is wrong and after hearing a reasoned self-consistent coherent and correct explanation WHY it is wrong, still does what is wrong.. well then you have to attribute responsibility to that adult. There are no demons or devils... evil is what evil people do... if you accept a conceptualization of wrong actions and responsibility in a certain way then the world is full of evil tyrants who would rather "enslave" than "tolerate" "inequity" of any kind. Edited November 15, 2013 by StrictlyLogical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eiuol Posted November 15, 2013 Report Share Posted November 15, 2013 (edited) I understand that the Fountainhead and Atlas Shrugged are trying to contrast moral perfection vs degeneracy through illustration, but I'm curious if Rand felt this way about the men around her? If you do? Expanding on Reidy's post, Rand described Dominique like herself on a bad day. So, Rand seems to be writing about thoughts and emotions she had but actually thinks are poorly founded. Sometimes I've felt like most people are vapid and stupid, Even about day to day things, not just "big" moral questions. Still, I don't believe that people really are on average hopelessly irrational, but that isn't to say I've never had pessimistic thoughts. Edited November 15, 2013 by Eiuol Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Devil's Advocate Posted November 18, 2013 Report Share Posted November 18, 2013 Expanding on Reidy's post, Rand described Dominique like herself on a bad day. So, Rand seems to be writing about thoughts and emotions she had but actually thinks are poorly founded. Sometimes I've felt like most people are vapid and stupid, Even about day to day things, not just "big" moral questions. Still, I don't believe that people really are on average hopelessly irrational, but that isn't to say I've never had pessimistic thoughts. That's an interesting item I hadn't heard before. Thanks for sharing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Repairman Posted November 19, 2013 Report Share Posted November 19, 2013 Certainly, Rand was expressing, through Dominique, the pessimism all of us often feel when people precipitate to our lowest expectations. Humanity has a great deal of improvement to make before it even comes close to the ideals set forth in Objectivist philosophy. Dominique would rather smash the heroic image of her souvenir Greek god, before falling in love with it. Rand held out the hope that our temporary moments of bitterness will not create a permanent conscious revulsion against those of higher ideals, as well as our own aspirations of our own personal higher ideals. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesscottbooks Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) If an adult, at first not knowing something is wrong, after being told that something is wrong and after hearing a reasoned self-consistent coherent and correct explanation WHY it is wrong, still does what is wrong.. well then you have to attribute responsibility to that adult. So are the second handers to be considered evil? They truly believe they are doing good and we are in fact doing evil by not taking care of everyone else... Edited November 20, 2013 by Jamesscottbooks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrictlyLogical Posted November 20, 2013 Report Share Posted November 20, 2013 (edited) Yes Edited November 20, 2013 by StrictlyLogical Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamesscottbooks Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Gee I went from member to Novice with that question... Strictlylogical - I do not believe they are evil, I do not see their actions as pernicious. I just think they are wrong, Although this topic seems to have lost its original thread... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
softwareNerd Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 (edited) Gee I went from member to Novice with that question...To clarify, you would have gone from "Newbie" to "Novice" and from "Member" to "Regular". Personally, I don't like "ranks" based on the number of posts, but that's all the forum software has. Edited November 21, 2013 by softwareNerd Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StrictlyLogical Posted November 21, 2013 Report Share Posted November 21, 2013 Your opinions are valid. Incorrectness in a non specific sense can be of different degrees, and the consequences of different magnitudes. Some of the worst dictators and tyrants of history were convinced what they were doing was right, they were insane and they were wrong. Recall that the standards by which concepts such as wrong and right good and evil are adjudged are reality and life and not something ineffable social or supernatural. If you are focusing on moral responsibility of the innocently ignorant, I have addressed that directly in my post. What is the distinction for you between evil/pernicious and "wrong"? (in the context of second handers). Is there a difference from making a mistake or an error and maintaining that error when there is no excuse to maintain it (when shown the mistake and why etc.)? I personally have met second handers who were evil. But that is a story for another day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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