The incalculable cost of mass incarceration

[CrowEpistemologist]

Article: The incalculable cost of mass incarceration

 

Every once in a while I read a news story that makes me intensely angry, and then deeply depressed.

 

"Of prisoners serving life sentences without parole, 79 percent committed nonviolent drug crimes. In the United States, 1 prisoner in 30 is serving a life sentence without the possibility of parole. In Pennsylvania the ratio is 1 in 10. In Louisiana it is 1 in 9."

 

This is just plain terrible. There's no other way to describe it.

 

It reminds me of this WTL quote:

 

It's strange. There's your life. You begin it, feeling that it's something so precious and rare, so beautiful that it's like a sacred treasure. Now it's over, and it doesn't make any difference to anyone, and it isn't that they are indifferent, it's just that they don't know, they don't know what it means, that treasure of mine, and there's something about it that they should understand. I don't understand it myself, but there's something that should be understood by all of us. Only what is it? What?

 

We live in a society, here in the USA, that tosses away people's lives for no reason. Angry and sad today...

 

[softwareNerd]

I don't know how people use the term "drug-related non-violent crime". For instance, if someone shop-lifts to buy drugs does that qualify? I don't know; when I read these types of articles, I'm never sure if the numbers they quote are the correct ones I should be concerned about. For instance, the "three-strikes" law and "mandatory sentences" increase the frequency and duration of sentences. I'm sure there must be papers that tease out the different impacts, but most popular articles are not as clear as I'd like.

 

I don't think it is possession. Lots of people are arrested possession; but, f marijuana possession is a "petty offence", then how many people are actually going to jail for possession? Putting people in jail for possessing drugs is like putting them in jail for being homosexual; but, does it happen in the U.S. to any great extent? Is it limited to certain states? It does not appear so.

 

Perhaps most "non-violent drug offences" are for the sale / transport-for-sale / trafficking of drugs? Thee involve prison sentences. According to this article, someone selling 5 kgs. of cocaine could get 10 years. 

 

I'd really like to know what exactly these people did that gets classified as "non-violent drug offence".

[DonAthos]

I don't know how people use the term "drug-related non-violent crime". For instance, if someone shop-lifts to buy drugs does that qualify?

That's a brilliant observation. I'd never considered it before when encountering these kinds of stats.

 

For instance, the "three-strikes" law and "mandatory sentences" increase the frequency and duration of sentences. I'm sure there must be papers that tease out the different impacts, but most popular articles are not as clear as I'd like.

 

I don't think it is possession. Lots of people are arrested possession; but, f marijuana possession is a "petty offence", then how many people are actually going to jail for possession? Putting people in jail for possessing drugs is like putting them in jail for being homosexual; but, does it happen in the U.S. to any great extent? Is it limited to certain states? It does not appear so.

I recently watched a documentary that speaks to some of these matters, called "The House I Live In." It's available on Netflix instant (if that helps). You might check it out.

[Nicky]

79%, huh? According to Al-Jazeera, huh? So you'll just accept this as fact, huh?

[softwareNerd]

... "The House I Live In." It's available on Netflix instant...

Added to queue, thanks.

The other side of the "non-violent" classification is this: even the "violent drug-related" crimes are partly caused by drugs being illegal. Since there's no legal mechanism to enforce the extra-legal "contracts" when one gangs, gang-leaders, are necessary enforcers within that context. If one drug-supplier cheats another, the victim's recourse comes via illegal threats, gangs and violence.

[Nicky]

Added to queue, thanks.

The other side of the "non-violent" classification is this: even the "violent drug-related" crimes are partly caused by drugs being illegal. Since there's no legal mechanism to enforce the extra-legal "contracts" when one gangs, gang-leaders, are necessary enforcers within that context. If one drug-supplier cheats another, the victim's recourse comes via illegal threats, gangs and violence.

That sounds like an excellent reason to avoid the drug business altogether.

Sure, it's wrong to outlaw drugs. But that's not a good enough reason to start shedding tears for drug dealers.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Nicky

[FeatherFall]

Some of this could be the result of pleading down, too. It's still monstrous.

[CrowEpistemologist]

79%, huh? According to Al-Jazeera, huh? So you'll just accept this as fact, huh?

 

It looks like AJ got the stats from the ACLU--another bunch of communists. Here's the entire non-factual report, which cites non-factual filings from court records other non-factual sources. It makes a lot of sense for the various justice sources to inflate these numbers since they like making themselves look worse. Clearly its all total BS.

 

This total-BS report cites total-BS stories like the virtual death sentence received by kids mailing their friends a few tabs of acid. They obviously deserved what was coming to them. These are 18, 19, even 20 year old kids hardened criminals: they knew the law, or if they didn't, it's their fault for not knowing it. Thank God they don't just kill them--which would be a lot cheaper--but instead keep them in prison for life without the possibility of every getting out. Killing them would be easier on them. Keeping them alive for a life of incarceration makes them suffer more. Bastards.

 

 

(Life is so much easier when you have Abstractions^TM to do your thinking for you. All you need to know is "the Bad Guy's news source said this", and you automatically know it's wrong, and you only need to support the exact opposite of their conclusion to find the truth. It's an epistemological shortcut that really works every single time!)

[Nicky]

Life is so much easier when you have Abstractions^TM

I don't know if common sense counts as an abstraction. I'll be honest, all I did was take one look at this sentence: "Of prisoners serving life sentences without parole, 79 percent committed nonviolent drug crimes." from your post, and concluded that that claim defies common sense on such a level that no further research is needed, and that I need to immediately stop reading and find a better use for my time.

 

But fine, I'll look at the numbers. There are 3,278 people incarcerated for life without parole in the US, for what the ACLU considers non-violent offenses. There are 50,000 people incarcerated for life without parole, in total. Now I'm no mathematician, but I do have a calculator. According to that calculator, 3,278 multiplied by 100 and divided by 50.000 is in fact not 79. It's 6 and change. 

 

So that number is 6%, not 79%. The sentence should read: "Of prisoners serving life sentences without parole, 6 percent committed nonviolent drug crimes." Common sense, confirmed by reality. Feel free to double check that. I can't believe you need to, and that that quote didn't immediately cause you to dismiss the whole thing as nonsense, but go ahead and check. As for Al-Jazeera, they're either lying or they can't speak English. Either way, not a good source for news about the United States.

Edited November 24, 2013 by Nicky

[CrowEpistemologist]

There are 50,000 people incarcerated for life without parole,

 

Where did you get this number? Did you have it memorized?

[CrowEpistemologist]

I don't know if common sense counts as an abstraction. I'll be honest, all I did was take one look at this sentence: "Of prisoners serving life sentences without parole, 79 percent committed nonviolent drug crimes." from your post, and concluded that that claim defies common sense on such a level that no further research is needed, and that I need to immediately stop reading and find a better use for my time.

Now you are just plain lying. They used a (very large) statistical sampling (which is where the 3k number came from). Your statement here is just a lie. It makes one wonder why you'd go to such length to defend our nation's drug laws...

 

 

Using data obtained from the Bureau of Prisons and state

Departments of Corrections, the ACLU calculates that

as of 2012, there were 3,278 prisoners serving LWOP for

nonviolent drug and property crimes in the federal system

and in nine states that provided such statistics (there may well

be more such prisoners in other states). About 79 percent of

these 3,278 prisoners are serving LWOP for nonviolent drug

crimes. Nearly two-thirds of prisoners serving LWOP for

nonviolent offenses nationwide are in the federal system; of

these, 96 percent are serving LWOP for drug crimes. More

than 18 percent of federal prisoners surveyed by the ACLU

are serving LWOP for their first offenses. Of the states that

sentence nonviolent offenders to LWOP, Louisiana, Florida,

Alabama, Mississippi, South Carolina, and Oklahoma

have the highest numbers of prisoners serving LWOP for

nonviolent crimes, largely due to three-strikes and other

kinds of habitual offender laws that mandate an LWOP

sentence for the commission of a nonviolent crime.

[softwareNerd]

..., there were 3,278 prisoners serving LWOP for nonviolent drug and property crimes in the federal system and in nine states that provided such statistics (there may well be more such prisoners in other states).

About 79 percent of these 3,278 prisoners are serving LWOP for nonviolent drug crimes.

Nearly two-thirds of prisoners serving LWOP for nonviolent offenses nationwide are in the federal system;

of these, 96 percent are serving LWOP for drug crimes.

More than 18 percent of federal prisoners surveyed by the ACLU are serving LWOP for their first offenses.

According to that, of 3,278 prisoners serving LWOP for nonviolent drug and property crimes, 2,590 (79%) are in for non-violent drug crimes, and 688 are in for non-violent property-crimes.

It makes no comparison to people serving LWOP for violent crimes. So, as stated the original statement -- "Of prisoners serving life sentences without parole, 79 % committed non-violent drug-crimes", is not supported. It is a misreading of the detailed quote you provided (above).  

A quick google didn't get me the total number of people serving LWOP.

Edited November 24, 2013 by softwareNerd

[Nicky]

double post, sorry...also, I posted before I saw SNs reply. 

 

The 50.000 comes from here: http://www.sentencingproject.org/detail/news.cfm?news_id=1636&id=107 (via wikipedia)

Edited November 24, 2013 by Nicky

[Nicky]

Imho, this disagreement is basic enough that it's within the mods purview to settle it. So, if a kind mod would please just look into this: Of prisoners serving life sentences without parole in the US, what percentage committed non-violent crimes? Is it 6%, or is it 79%?

 

Given how easy it is to answer that question, I think whichever one of us is in "error", and is continuing to insist that he's right, is trolling and should kindly be asked to knock it out.

[FeatherFall]

It isn't really our responsibility to settle these types of disputes. My opinion as an average Joe is that you're both wrong, but that Nicky's 6% is closer to the 5% real answer (assuming the numbers cited are correct and come from the same time-frame). Regardless of who's right, you could both show more tact.

[FeatherFall]

It's still a monstrous atrocity, BTW.

[Eiuol]

Actually, the stats are with regard to people sentenced since 1999. 3465 were sentenced to LWOP. 2,948 of those were nonviolent. 2034 of those were for drug crimes. The ACLU report is seriously flawed, it interpreted the stats it shows wrong, even, or in a weird way. In the past 14 years 85% of people sentenced for LWOP were non-violent; ~58% of people sentenced to LWOP were drug crimes. This is for federal prison - that 50,000 number is all prisons. Read page 24 of the report (text below). It says this, but again, there seem to be a lot of confusing wording or wrong. Still, the stats at least for federal prison are VERY bad for the direction things are going.

 

In the federal system, more than half (51.1 percent) of the

total population of prisoners currently serving LWOP are

serving their sentences for nonviolent offenses. Between 1999

and 2011, 3,465 prisoners were admitted to federal prison

to serve LWOP sentences;

2,948 of them were convicted of

nonviolent offenses, indicating that nonviolent offenders

could account for as much as 85 percent of the federal prison

population that was sentenced to life in prison without the

possibility of parole during that 13-year period.

[CrowEpistemologist]

I agree the report is very confusing, and really could have done with laying out the basic stats in a simple table. I can't figure out from the stats available what is what--nobody seems to cite any end-data.

 

I don't agree, as Nicky does, that this whole thing is "no big deal" and that those kids serving life sentences for mailing their friends some dope "got what they deserved", etc. The exact statistics don't change any of the fundamental conclusions--the fact is, no matter which way you slice the numbers, the USA does this, and they do it a lot.

 

And it is one of the very worst things the USA does, and portends a society prepared to lock people up for "political offenses" since they've already passed the crucial Rubicon of effectively torturing humans who have never physically harmed anybody slowly to death.

 

Certainly people like Nicky live in a bubble where they are utterly certain that it "couldn't happen to them" or "people like them (wink wink nudge nudge)". Naive at best. Can we imagine LWOP applied to somebody FedExing a (technically illegal, say) 30 round magazine to a buddy in another state? Why not? How about somebody engaged in felony "tax evasion" which could consist of not following some new arcane rules? SEC violations. Etc. Etc.

 

Yes, it's true, they actually don't tend to go after "people like us" right now. Right now.

 

On the other hand, the ACLU can help turn this around. Let's hope they make some headway.

[Nicky]

I agree the report is very confusing, and really could have done with laying out the basic stats in a simple table. I can't figure out from the stats available what is what--nobody seems to cite any end-data.

 

I don't agree, as Nicky does, that this whole thing is "no big deal" and that those kids serving life sentences for mailing their friends some dope "got what they deserved", etc. The exact statistics don't change any of the fundamental conclusions--the fact is, no matter which way you slice the numbers, the USA does this, and they do it a lot.

 

And it is one of the very worst things the USA does, and portends a society prepared to lock people up for "political offenses" since they've already passed the crucial Rubicon of effectively torturing humans who have never physically harmed anybody slowly to death.

 

Certainly people like Nicky live in a bubble where they are utterly certain that it "couldn't happen to them" or "people like them (wink wink nudge nudge)". Naive at best. Can we imagine LWOP applied to somebody FedExing a (technically illegal, say) 30 round magazine to a buddy in another state? Why not? How about somebody engaged in felony "tax evasion" which could consist of not following some new arcane rules? SEC violations. Etc. Etc.

 

Yes, it's true, they actually don't tend to go after "people like us" right now. Right now.

 

On the other hand, the ACLU can help turn this around. Let's hope they make some headway.

Where are you getting all this from? Literally, the only thing I posted about this is that the number isn't 79%, it's 6%, and that you'd have to be out of touch with reality to think it's 79%.

[Nicky]

 

Actually, the stats are with regard to people sentenced since 1999. 3465 were sentenced to LWOP. 2,948 of those were nonviolent. 2034 of those were for drug crimes. The ACLU report is seriously flawed, it interpreted the stats it shows wrong, even, or in a weird way. In the past 14 years 85% of people sentenced for LWOP were non-violent; ~58% of people sentenced to LWOP were drug crimes. This is for federal prison - that 50,000 number is all prisons. Read page 24 of the report (text below). It says this, but again, there seem to be a lot of confusing wording or wrong. Still, the stats at least for federal prison are VERY bad for the direction things are going.

 

In the federal system, more than half (51.1 percent) of the

total population of prisoners currently serving LWOP are

serving their sentences for nonviolent offenses. Between 1999

and 2011, 3,465 prisoners were admitted to federal prison

to serve LWOP sentences;

2,948 of them were convicted of

nonviolent offenses, indicating that nonviolent offenders

could account for as much as 85 percent of the federal prison

population that was sentenced to life in prison without the

possibility of parole during that 13-year period.

 

The ACLU even sucks at propaganda. Why look at all federal convictions, and leave room for the occasional cross state murder spree that ends up in federal court to ruin a perfect argument?

 

They should just look at cases prosecuted by the DEA. Then, 100% of prisoners would be in for drug offenses. Can't beat that. Al Jazeera would be able to offer solid proof to their audience that the Great Satan only ever puts drug dealers in jail. Murder, rape, genocide, all legal in America.

[Kate87]

What's the point of debating these stats? Any measure will give you a shocking picture like this one:

 

 

Incarceration is a legal use of state force to protect people from criminals using force. America is one of the most unfree countries on the planet because it has the most illegal criminal and legal state use of force. America is the society where force and violence rules (both legal and illegal).

Edited November 25, 2013 by Kate87

[FeatherFall]

 

In the past 14 years 85% of people sentenced for LWOP were non-violent; ~58% of people sentenced to LWOP were drug crimes. This is for federal prison - that 50,000 number is all prisons. 

 

 

Thanks for clearing that up. Another case where more precise definitions (federal prisoners versus all prisoners) make a big difference.

[softwareNerd]

What's the point of debating these stats? Any measure will give you a shocking picture like this one:

Because shock is not an argument.

 

Incarceration is a legal use of state force to protect people from criminals using force. America is one of the most unfree countries on the planet because it has the most illegal criminal and legal state use of force.

I'm trying to parse this to see what you could have meant. Either you meant the U.S. is "unfree" because it has so many actual criminals. That would be a fallacy. So, perhaps you meant the U.S. is "unfree" because it imprisons people who ought not to be imprisoned. But... your shocking graphic does not tell us whether those people ought to be imprisoned. So, we're back to square one: the need to understand what the true stats are... but, then you say there's no point doing that?

[CrowEpistemologist]

Thanks for clearing that up. Another case where more precise definitions (federal prisoners versus all prisoners) make a big difference.

 

Like I said, the report was confusing, but on more careful examination the numbers are actually worse than the headlines would have you believe.

 

The worrisome factor here is not why inmates 20 or 30 years were put away, it is what has caused non-criminals to be slowly tortured to death right now. Comparing the number of all-time inmates and the more recent number shows you is that the trend is showing things getting a lot worse (although its hard to imagine it getting much worse than it is now).

 

The reality is that the most severely cruel punishment in our society besides death is used almost entirely on people who didn't physically hurt anybody, most of whom didn't even hurt anybody in any way.

 

I thank the ACLU for reporting on this and aljazeera.com for pointing out their research. They both do/say things that aren't true and/or are slanted in socialist ways occasionally, but I'm, you know, "comfortable with my rationality" so to speak... Meanwhile I'm exposed to information sources people like Nicky pretend don't exist.

 

***

 

By the way, lest you think the "lock them up and throw away the key" approach to justice is in any way practical, read up on your penology. If I disturb a robber looking to boost a car stereo, I don't want to be exposed to somebody looking at the most horrible punishment imaginable if they are caught: somebody who'd sooner gun me down because, what difference does it make when murder and petty theft are the same in the eyes of the law? Mandatory sentences like this increase violence and make it worse for everybody. If that same robber is looking at 6-24 months in the can--probably fair for a non-physically-violent car stereo boostage--then chances are he's going to just run away, leaving my person intact. Etc. Etc.

 

(It's interesting to note that this thinking is not new).

[Kate87]

Because shock is not an argument.

 

I'm trying to parse this to see what you could have meant. Either you meant the U.S. is "unfree" because it has so many actual criminals. That would be a fallacy. So, perhaps you meant the U.S. is "unfree" because it imprisons people who ought not to be imprisoned. But... your shocking graphic does not tell us whether those people ought to be imprisoned. So, we're back to square one: the need to understand what the true stats are... but, then you say there's no point doing that?

 

Both. If the first (unfree because so many actual criminals) then this shows how much violence is happening in the US (violence is not conducive to freedom). If the second, then that shows how much state sponsored threats play a part in life in the USA (not conducive to freedom). The mixture of the two is why I am saying the US is not free when compared with other countries.