"Talking Down" to non-Objectivists

[y_feldblum]

First-day martial arts students "fighting." Foolish.

Heh.

[Johnrgt]

Hi Dominique,

You wrote,

"...and it was really distressing, how easily they gave up."

I don't think they gave-up. They had nothing to give-up. No matter what they claimed Re their viewpoints, both to you and to themselves, they never actually held the ideas they condemn as naive.

One of my closest friends, we were best buds for about 15 years, studied everything AR wrote over a period of about five years.

"What a mind."

"How clear."

"How did I not see that?"

"How have these bastards been getting away with it all for centuries?"

"Well, all we have to do is spread the word."

He'd quote AR, Objectivist intellectuals, and hit everyone he could over the head with perfectly valid arguments that he adjusted on the spot to the topic and the conversation's "flavor." He knew the philosophy very, very well, and was able to defend it, explain it, and clarify the most intricate "details" to anyone interested in such discussions.

Sounds good, right?

Well, we attended a lecture/book promotion by one Nathaniel Branden (I had only read AR's fiction at the time, and had heard a few ARB lectures while driving. I knew NB had a romance with AR that ended badly, but knew nothing more about him.)

I laughed at too many of Branden's claims at that lecture -- to myself and out loud.

My friend, however, read Branden's books and signed-up for weekly sessions at ~$200 per, some time later. Within months of starting these sessions my friend was renouncing Objectivism as cult-like, thought the whole thing was a silly, convenient construct, and caught up with the rationalist/skeptic/subjectivist approach that defined him in high school (his valid assessment of his thinking prior to studying AR.)

Did he give-up on Objectivism?

No.

Looking back I now see that his mind made a kind of endlessly malleable goo out of Objectivism -- I now see that he did this with everything he claimed to believe and love. He knew the philosophy backwards and forwards, claimed to believe it was valid, was passionate about it, yet he never really held it.

The ominous difference between how he pulled back from Objectivism, versus how he pulled back from other ideas he ended up rejecting, was that when he attacked aspects of Objectivism he ENJOYED IT!!!! He seemed as relieved as Mr. Thompson would have been if he had been assured that indeed, "it wasn't real." (His attacks, BTW, were constructed to come in as far under the radar as possible. He had made too big an issue of his admiration of Objectivism and AR to categorically reject either. Still, if you knew how to read him, his eyes, it was clear that he loved thinking Objectivism was no more valid than anything else. He was FREE AT LAST!!)

I don't make agreement with my views a prereq for friendship. Most of the people I enjoy simply have a sense of life I respond to. As long as they're not militant collectivists, have some respect for reason, are honest enough to not take advantage of my kindness, and they're fun to be with (not repressed), I can relate to them.

My friend, however, quickly showed what was brewing inside of him all this time. When this ugliness started coming out (think of the Hoover damn collapsing in an instant), he became a horrible, manipulative, intolerable supeman (Nietzsche) I had to move on.

Claiming to be a radical for freedom and knowing the related arguments backwards and forwards, doesn't mean one has actually integrated these beliefs into one's thinking in a meaningful way -- too many people these days allow their "convictions" to go "only so deep."

Any comments would be appreciated.

Johnrgt

JH

[Dominique]

I don't think they gave-up.  They had nothing to give-up.  No matter what they claimed Re their viewpoints, both to you and to themselves, they never actually held the ideas they condemn as naive.

Possibly, but what I mean is gave up on life. It could be just that since reading Ayn Rand it seems so obvious to me that that is the logical progression of their nihilism, and then they are so unwilling to even consider that reality might be knowable, which distresses me so much. That it's so ingrained to reject out of hand any claim that truth even exists, and can be known to man.

Looking back I now see that his mind made a kind of endlessly malleable goo out of Objectivism -- I now see that he did this with everything he claimed to believe and love.  He knew the philosophy backwards and forwards, claimed to believe it was valid, was passionate about it, yet he never really held it.

It takes effort to make your mind into something structured instead of malleable goo. I guess some people find it too hard or not worth it, and welcome the greyness in which they are not responsible for following their own thoughts through to their logical conclusions, in which they can *go with the flow*.

I don't make agreement with my views a prereq for friendship. 

I don't either, if I did I wouldn't have friends at all. But the differences matter. Where they are and how they are handled is key.

-- too many people these days allow their "convictions" to go "only so deep."

It's the "open-mind" syndrome

[realitycheck44]

Looking back I now see that his mind made a kind of endlessly malleable goo out of Objectivism -- I now see that he did this with everything he claimed to believe and love.  He knew the philosophy backwards and forwards, claimed to believe it was valid, was passionate about it, yet he never really held it.

Could you try and explain this for me? I really don't understand the malleable goo comment. Thanks alot.

[Johnrgt]

By “malleable goo” I mean his intellectual/psychological dishonesty made it easy for him to, eventually, automatize clever ways of stretching Objectivism to justify errors he wasn’t willing to let go of. (If anyone else used similar deceptions, well, he’d discover the gimmick in no time and unleash hell on the perpetrator.)

It was only a mater of time before he reduced Objectivism to “some good ideas”, and continued his subjectivist orgy -- just like his therapist.

JohnRgt